Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 569895 times)

Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2014, 09:39:09 AM »
-1. You cannot set it up so that he covers your interest charges only if you are charged them
FTFM
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2014, 09:42:43 AM »
FTFM
It wouldn't be worded that way, but of course you can. The same conditions that cause an interest charge can be set up as the conditions of your portion of the return on investment.

Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2014, 09:53:52 AM »
It wouldn't be worded that way, but of course you can. The same conditions that cause an interest charge can be set up as the conditions of your portion of the return on investment.
But not dependent on whether or not you were charged interest. You can agree that he will pay you irrelevant of if you are charged interest (but he will never agree)
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2014, 10:07:01 AM »
But not dependent on whether or not you were charged interest. You can agree that he will pay you irrelevant of if you are charged interest (but he will never agree)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how these swiping agreements work (as I stated with bewilderment earlier in this thread), but why wouldn't he agree? You only get charged interest if you carry a balance from month to month. Are they saying at the time of the agreement that they won't pay back for months? Then it's clear that they're just disguising a longer term interest free loan as a 'borrowing a credit car'. It makes no sense.

Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2014, 10:08:00 AM »
No. He expects to pay before interest is charged.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2014, 10:16:43 AM »
No. He expects to pay before interest is charged.
And he can avoid paying anything other than the principle to you via the heter iska if he pays on time as well. Think of it as setting up the return on investment in the heter iska as a dividend. If you don't have any ownership stake on the date of the dividend you don't receive the dividend. If he pays off the principle 'early' the 'debt' is paid and the 'investment partnership' is dissolved.

Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2014, 10:45:59 AM »
I hear. I'd ask a rav. Sounds off to me
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Offline txtmax4

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2014, 11:13:50 AM »
This thread is going way OT.
Just to answer what someone said about charging interest being clear ribbis.
I know of such a story where a very respected LOR arranged a heter iska where the gains of the lender on top of the original loan were "כל הוצאות הבאנק", IIRC that even included the CC annual fees and late payment fees (I can try and find out) and, of course, the bank's interest.
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Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2014, 11:15:26 AM »
And they split them or he paid completely? Can you find out exactly how the iska was formulated?
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Offline txtmax4

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2014, 11:18:33 AM »
And they split them or he paid completely?
Not sure what you mean by this.
Can you find out exactly how the iska was formulated?
I think the LOR took it from a sefer where there are several types of heterei iska, he chose the one that was fit for this case, I don't think he wrote his own nusach, remind me after Shabbos and I can try to find out.
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Offline dbel23

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2014, 02:03:17 PM »
@txtmx4 if you do find that source for the heterei iska, please share!

Offline skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #91 on: January 03, 2014, 02:13:32 PM »
@txtmx4 if you do find that source for the heterei iska, please share!
There are 5 examples in section 2 of this page, though txtmax's example is not one of them.

Offline Dan

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #92 on: January 03, 2014, 02:15:46 PM »
I would call up the bank notifying them that someone stole my credit card and charged $100k
Most cards verify that the charge is legit at that spending level.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #93 on: January 03, 2014, 02:17:18 PM »
Since when do vendors accept CC at that level anyway?

Offline meshugener

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #94 on: January 03, 2014, 02:21:21 PM »
Most cards verify that the charge is legit at that spending level.
Not all of them charge 100k in one shot. Its like $5-10k in one transaction, which doesnt raise any flags IME.
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Offline whYME

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2014, 02:34:56 PM »
Not necessarily are the charges legit even if the AH agreed to them.
For example, there was a story (with a DDFer) where he allowed the scammer to by goods with the card but the scammer used it to get cash instead.

Offline dans fan

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #96 on: January 03, 2014, 03:01:37 PM »
a wise man once advised me, "only lend money that you can afford to give as tzedakah". although for scammers or biz that goes sour the tzedakah angel wont help
i heard that the satmar rav (rabainu yoel i think not very familiar with the dynasty) used to say when a minhag is against halacha what do you do " a minhag is stronger than halacha" , look around the halacha is if you borrow money you must pay back and the minhag is not to
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 03:15:05 PM by dans fan »

Offline dans fan

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #97 on: January 03, 2014, 03:11:02 PM »
maybe a little off topic, two points on above discussion
as far as being repayed by scammers or risky/wild transactions, some (only some) cases fall into the klal of heniach maosav al keren hatzvi, most cases dont but being that you are the motzi it can be difficult to get your money back in bais din (its another reason not to lend s/o money you cant evan win in b'd)
borrowing from a credit card many would say he never actually borrowed from you but directly from the bank (this does have ribis ramifications ) and therefore he owes them money and not you , the fact that you are left with the bill, bad credit, interest, ect would be grama or garmi. just another reason why you may never see your money back

Offline Yungerman

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #98 on: January 03, 2014, 04:32:42 PM »
maybe a little off topic, two points on above discussion
as far as being repayed by scammers or risky/wild transactions, some (only some) cases fall into the klal of heniach maosav al keren hatzvi, most cases dont but being that you are the motzi it can be difficult to get your money back in bais din (its another reason not to lend s/o money you cant evan win in b'd)
borrowing from a credit card many would say he never actually borrowed from you but directly from the bank (this does have ribis ramifications ) and therefore he owes them money and not you , the fact that you are left with the bill, bad credit, interest, ect would be grama or garmi. just another reason why you may never see your money back

Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #99 on: January 04, 2014, 08:44:43 PM »
Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.
And the more important ramification is that since the borrower has a chov to the lender and not the bank, there's no grama or garmi, it's a direct chov that should be collectible in beis din (assuming you can prove that the chov exists).