Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1182495 times)

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #360 on: December 08, 2016, 07:16:53 AM »


We are on this road because I answered a hypothetical question in good faith and you tried and turn that around as a gothca question.
Isn't that how debates work?


Again you are missing the point. Anything I do with Amex is none of your business. You agreed to pay me for those charges. You did not so my only recourse was to get the charges voided. The same if you paid me for the charges and I never paid Amex. That again is none of your business.

B didnt pay you so go get it back from him and only him. Its none of my business if you lie to amex to recoup different money to cover that loss unless that lie takes it away from me- an unrelated 3rd party.  Either way I agree, this isn't going anywhere.

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #361 on: December 08, 2016, 07:20:12 AM »
Isn't that how debates work?
So this is about who can win a debate?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #362 on: December 08, 2016, 07:21:51 AM »
So this is about who can win a debate?
No. But many times it takes walking people in a direction they don't want to take to realize their reasoning is flawed, one sided, and incorrect.

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #363 on: December 08, 2016, 07:24:47 AM »
No. But many times it takes walking people in a direction they don't want to take to realize their reasoning is flawed, one sided, and incorrect.
If my reasoning is flawed then so is thousands of others that I have done deals with over the past 40 years. Anyone who feels my reasoning is flawed please post so I can put you on the list of never to do deals with.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #364 on: December 08, 2016, 07:31:06 AM »
If my reasoning is flawed then so is thousands of others that I have done deals with over the past 40 years. Anyone who feels my reasoning is flawed please post so I can put you on the list of never to do deals with.
What makes you say their reasoning is flawed? Has this come up before?
I'm merely looking for a reasoning that works across the board. You failed to explain to me why it works different when paid with cash than with the safety net of the CC dispute.

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #365 on: December 08, 2016, 07:50:57 AM »
What makes you say their reasoning is flawed? Has this come up before?
Numerous times deals have not gone as planned. SOP and common sense has prevailed in all of them. A & B guarantee their ends. The side deals they make are their responsibilities. How much simpler does it get?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #366 on: December 08, 2016, 07:53:50 AM »
Numerous times deals have not gone as planned. SOP and common sense has prevailed in all of them. A & B guarantee their ends. The side deals they make are their responsibilities. How much simpler does it get?
As i said, im not so intelligent. Just trying to understand.
Now that B has not fulfilled his guarantee, what makes you allowed to collect from a 3rd party? Whether that is amex or someone else.  Filing a dispute is not collecting from B.

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #367 on: December 08, 2016, 08:05:35 AM »
As i said, im not so intelligent. Just trying to understand.
Now that B has not fulfilled his guarantee, what makes you allowed to collect from a 3rd party? Whether that is amex or someone else.  Filing a dispute is not collecting from B.
B made the charges. Disputing them gets me my money back from the charges B didn't pay me for. I understand there is a 3rd party involved but that is B's responsibility not mine. My deal with B did not cover any side deals he made. Not sure how much simpler I can make it.

Made I am not understanding your situation but I suspect for privacy reasons you are not laying out all the facts.

ETA: Maybe you are looking at it from a Jewish law point of view and that is not the same as a non-Jewish way of looking at it?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #368 on: December 08, 2016, 08:08:38 AM »
B made the charges. Disputing them gets me my money back from the charges B didn't pay me for. I understand there is a 3rd party involved but that is B's responsibility not mine. My deal with B did not cover any side deals he made. Not sure how much simpler I can make it.

Made I am not understanding your situation but I suspect for privacy reasons you are not laying out all the facts.
There's where you go wrong. It doesn't get you anything back from B who is the only person you can collect from.
I understand it's quite a drastic case but it's like saying B didnt pay me back so I'll walk into 7-11 and take a bag of chips instead.

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #369 on: December 08, 2016, 08:11:30 AM »



Made I am not understanding your situation but I suspect for privacy reasons you are not laying out all the facts.

My exact particulars didnt make a difference as we were arguing in the case the way you saw it.
Either way my exact case was that A gave B a credit card to swipe so A can get the rewards. B then went ahead and paid me (C) for an unrelated service that was supplied previously. A couple months later A still didn't get reimbursed so he disputed all charges.

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #370 on: December 08, 2016, 08:11:56 AM »
There's where you go wrong. It doesn't get you anything back from B who is the only person you can collect from.
I understand it's quite a drastic case but it's like saying B didnt pay me back so I'll walk into 7-11 and take a bag of chips instead.
B charged 10k and didn't pay me. I am out 10k. I dispute the charges, get my 10k back and at least I am even.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #371 on: December 08, 2016, 08:12:58 AM »
B charged 10k and didn't pay me. I am out 10k. I dispute the charges, get my 10k back and at least I am even.
You didnt get YOUR 10K back. You got mine.

Offline David Smith

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #372 on: December 08, 2016, 08:13:21 AM »
B made the charges. Disputing them gets me my money back from the charges B didn't pay me for. I understand there is a 3rd party involved but that is B's responsibility not mine. My deal with B did not cover any side deals he made. Not sure how much simpler I can make it.

Made I am not understanding your situation but I suspect for privacy reasons you are not laying out all the facts.

ETA: Maybe you are looking at it from a Jewish law point of view and that is not the same as a non-Jewish way of looking at it?
Can you answer this question?
In your utopian legal system, if someone doesn't pay his credit card bill the credit card company can claw back the charges from the merchants the charges were incurred by?
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #373 on: December 08, 2016, 08:14:17 AM »




ETA: Maybe you are looking at it from a Jewish law point of view and that is not the same as a non-Jewish way of looking at it?
Could be honesty is naturally ingrained in me and its affecting my judgement .
Either way I spoke to 2 lawyers, one not Jewish and they both agreed with me.

Offline incendia

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #374 on: December 08, 2016, 08:14:35 AM »
I think there is something we all agree on... B is a scumbag.

When you make someone an AU on your account the CC company specifically tells you that you are responsible for any and all charges on the AU's card.
As long as C used SOP and common sense when dealing with B he shouldn't lose out.

A dealt with B and A has to go after B for the cash. A is now dragging C into his dispute with A and thats not right.

Merchants are only responsible for the transaction happening infront of them.

C cant know that the CC really belongs to A and that A isnt really authorizing these charges.

A made a loan to B and has to collect from B

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #375 on: December 08, 2016, 08:18:02 AM »



C cant know that the CC really belongs to A and that A isnt really authorizing these charges.
Although he do has to know and might be responsible for not doing due diligence. In this case A DID authorize the charges.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #376 on: December 08, 2016, 08:48:47 AM »
I think there is something we all agree on... B is a scumbag.

When you make someone an AU on your account the CC company specifically tells you that you are responsible for any and all charges on the AU's card.
As long as C used SOP and common sense when dealing with B he shouldn't lose out.

A dealt with B and A has to go after B for the cash. A is now dragging C into his dispute with A and thats not right.

Merchants are only responsible for the transaction happening infront of them.

C cant know that the CC really belongs to A and that A isnt really authorizing these charges.

A made a loan to B and has to collect from B

Is that the case here?
Because if B is an AU, C can show that he provided a service to B and win the dispute.

But if B is not an AU - even though B was "authorized" by A -  C is taking unnecessary risk by providing a service to someone who is using a credit card in A's name.

Maybe A is morally wrong for disputing the charges, but C should know the risks he is taking when swiping a card that isn't in B's name.
Visibly Jewish

Offline Drago

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #377 on: December 08, 2016, 08:50:56 AM »
Sounds like JTZ is saying that A can chargeback b/c he is justified in hurting B who commited the fraud.
However, Emkay is saying that A is actually hurting C who doesn't deserve to be hurt by A. B isn't being hurt by this chargeback (at least not until Emkay gets to him). Ideally, A should 'get back' at B via a different method that wouldn't hurt C.

Am I following this correctly?

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #378 on: December 08, 2016, 08:55:45 AM »



However, Emkay is saying that A is actually hurting C who doesn't deserve to be hurt by A. B isn't being hurt by this chargeback (at least not until Emkay gets to him). Ideally, A should 'get back' at B via a different method that wouldn't hurt C.

Am I following this correctly?
Yes. He legally, morally, and ethically has no right to dispute.

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #379 on: December 08, 2016, 08:56:51 AM »
Is that the case here?
Because if B is an AU, C can show that he provided a service to B and win the dispute.

But if B is not an AU - even though B was "authorized" by A -  C is taking unnecessary risk by providing a service to someone who is using a credit card in A's name.

Maybe A is morally wrong for disputing the charges, but C should know the risks he is taking when swiping a card that isn't in B's name.
Its not about what can or can't be done. Its about what is allowed to be done.