Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1182702 times)

Offline Mplace

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #400 on: December 08, 2016, 11:11:01 AM »
Noone swiped for cash. If there is no "C" and the person losing from the dispute is "B" and its within the terms then its a sep case
this discussion/concept is called swiping for cash..
But anyway

If a gave B permission to swipe (to himself) and B decided, I have a bill by C let me pay him from A card instead of losing the fees..
Now A losses out the opportunity to dispute?
What's your plan for yud shvat?

Offline SearchGuy

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #401 on: December 08, 2016, 11:11:21 AM »
According to Halacha when B uses A's credit card it goes from the bank's account to A's account, then from A to B, basically A borrowed money from B and not from the bank, if B gives his credit card to C, that means that B borrowed the money from A and handed over to C, at this point the money is in C's authority, A is getting screwed by B so B now owes A money, but here is the point C got his money rightfully from B because the money was in B's authority and had the Halachic right to give it to C, at this point A cannot go to C and tell him this money B gave you he borrowed from me and he didn't pay me so you have to give me my money, C didn't receive this money with any term that would connect him to anything, the money was 100% B's at the time C got it, C had a full Kinyan of the money because it was in his account already.
A cannot come to C and ask for money... That's my thought about this issue, I didn't learn it, but this is how I understand this situation

I think in either case a din torah is way to handle it

Offline SearchGuy

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #402 on: December 08, 2016, 11:12:39 AM »
this discussion/concept is called swiping for cash..
But anyway

If a gave B permission to swipe (to himself) and B decided, I have a bill by C let me pay him from A card instead of losing the fees..
Now A losses out the opportunity to dispute?
Yes, as expalined above, in jewish terms it's called Kinyan, so whoever holds the money he owns it and no one is allowed to take it away from him

Online cholent

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #403 on: December 08, 2016, 11:15:11 AM »
I initially agreed with JTZ here but I've been convinced by some very well formulated arguments here. The argument is between A and B, A has no right to dispute the charge to C
Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #404 on: December 08, 2016, 11:16:32 AM »
According to Halacha when B uses A's credit card it goes from the bank's account to A's account, then from A to B, basically A borrowed money from B and not from the bank, if B gives his credit card to C, that means that B borrowed the money from A and handed over to C, at this point the money is in C's authority, A is getting screwed by B so B now owes A money, but here is the point C got his money rightfully from B because the money was in B's authority and had the Halachic right to give it to C, at this point A cannot go to C and tell him this money B gave you he borrowed from me and he didn't pay me so you have to give me my money, C didn't receive this money with any term that would connect him to anything, the money was 100% B's at the time C got it, C had a full Kinyan of the money because it was in his account already.
A cannot come to C and ask for money... That's my thought about this issue, I didn't learn it, but this is how I understand this situation

I think in either case a din torah is way to handle it
Thank you for the Jewish law perspective. Now I understand why some can't understand what I am saying.  :)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #405 on: December 08, 2016, 11:18:04 AM »
this discussion/concept is called swiping for cash..
But anyway

If a gave B permission to swipe (to himself) and B decided, I have a bill by C let me pay him from A card instead of losing the fees..
Now A losses out the opportunity to dispute?

"A" gave "B" permission use his card for whatever the heck he wanted. To buy sushi, pay for a massage, gamble in Vegas.... This isn't swiping for cash.

A doesnt lose the privilege of disputing, if the sushi was spoiled, dispute it. If the massage didn't  end like he wanted, dispute it. If the casino was rigged, dispute it. But he sure as hell loses the right to dispute just because "B" can't pay the bill.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 11:22:41 AM by Emkay »

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #406 on: December 08, 2016, 11:18:13 AM »
I initially agreed with JTZ here but I've been convinced by some very well formulated arguments here. The argument is between A and B, A has no right to dispute the charge to C
This is why I asked for the facts to the case. Did A know C was part of the deal?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #407 on: December 08, 2016, 11:20:20 AM »
But he sure as hell loses the right to dispute just because he can't pay the bill.
That is why he is disputing or because B didn't pay for the charges he made and promise to pay for.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #408 on: December 08, 2016, 11:21:02 AM »
Thank you for the Jewish law perspective. Now I understand why some can't understand what I am saying.  :)
I'm open to you FULLY explaining it from a legal or ethically logical perspective instead of just saying that I'm not understanding.

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #409 on: December 08, 2016, 11:21:42 AM »
That is why he is disputing or because B didn't pay for the charges he made and promise to pay for.
What I meant. You think he can dispute that?

Offline Hershelsdeals

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #410 on: December 08, 2016, 11:22:20 AM »
Thank you for the Jewish law perspective. Now I understand why some can't understand what I am saying.  :)
It's not Jewish law, it's utter b*******

Jewish law is much more complex, there are hundreds of books debating what and how Kinyan works

(No offense @searchguy)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 11:25:37 AM by Hershelsdeals »

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #411 on: December 08, 2016, 11:23:47 AM »
This is why I asked for the facts to the case. Did A know C was part of the deal?
Specifically "C"? No idea. But he knew " B" was paying bills and purchasing items from 3rd parties.

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #412 on: December 08, 2016, 11:25:14 AM »
I'm open to you FULLY explaining it from a legal or ethically logical perspective instead of just saying that I'm not understanding.
I explained it many times. The deal is between A&B. B is trying to scam A so A has the right to do whatever needs to be done to recoup the loss.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #413 on: December 08, 2016, 11:25:28 AM »
It's not Jewish law, it's utter b*******

(No offense @searchguy)
I'm not taking sides but would you like a source so you can mind what you say before you end up eating your socks?

Offline Hershelsdeals

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #414 on: December 08, 2016, 11:26:33 AM »
It's not Jewish law, it's utter b*******

Jewish law is much more complex, there are hundreds of books debating what and how Kinyan works

(No offense @searchguy)

I'm not taking sides but would you like a source so you can mind what you say before you end up eating your socks?
@searchguy is the one that needs to bring a source

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #415 on: December 08, 2016, 11:27:30 AM »
Specifically "C"? No idea. But he knew " B" was paying bills and purchasing items from 3rd parties.
So this is an A/B deal then
B is trying to scam A so A has the right to do whatever needs to be done to recoup the loss.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #416 on: December 08, 2016, 11:27:57 AM »
I explained it many times. The deal is between A&B. B is trying to scam A so A has the right to do whatever needs to be done to recoup the loss.
Are you not listening? He can only recoup the loss from "B", do you argue on that? Can he recoup it from Walmart electronics aisle when noone is looking? If you don't answer the targeted questions I ask I can't figure out where I believe you're confusing or fooling yourself.

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #417 on: December 08, 2016, 11:28:22 AM »
It's not Jewish law, it's utter b*******
Don't shoot the Goy.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #418 on: December 08, 2016, 11:31:23 AM »
Are you not listening? He can only recoup the loss from "B", do you argue on that? Can he recoup it from Walmart electronics aisle when noone is looking? If you don't answer the targeted questions I ask I can't figure out where I believe you're confusing or fooling yourself.
I let you use my card to make a 10k purchase with a promise to pay it back. After you make the purchase you refuse to pay me. Can I dispute the charge to recoup my 10k?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #419 on: December 08, 2016, 11:32:06 AM »
I let you use my card to make a 10k purchase with a promise to pay it back. After you make the purchase you refuse to pay me. Can I dispute the charge to recoup my 10k?
Give me one minute.