Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1182838 times)

Offline David Smith

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #500 on: December 08, 2016, 02:20:08 PM »
If we were both standing on the corner and you wanted to know were the nearest Shul was which one of us would you ask?  :)
A or C? Either one.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline JTZ

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #501 on: December 08, 2016, 02:21:16 PM »
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline David Smith

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #502 on: December 08, 2016, 02:22:15 PM »
That makes me B?
You're not part of this story AFAIK, so nobody can be biased against your side.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline Mplace

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #503 on: December 08, 2016, 02:47:10 PM »
so there is a major difference if A gave B his card to use on general transactions or if A gave be his card to B to swipe x amount and B decided to use it to pay his bills

if A gives B his card with the agreement that the 'merchandise' (payment in this situation) will arrive in 45 days and it doesn't,
doesnt A have a right to dispute? even if he authorized the charge?
i'm not sure why it's A's business that B used the card by C..
unless B borrowed the money to use at C then its a different story

very possible A only gave his card cuz he knew that if B doesnt pay he'll dispute, not taking into consideration that C is involved

and this is not saying that 'since A is in need to pay his bill someone (C) has to pay for it,
What's your plan for yud shvat?

Online Yehuda57

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #504 on: December 08, 2016, 02:49:40 PM »
If we were both standing on the corner and you wanted to know were the nearest Shul was which one of us would you ask?  :)

Whoa. So the reason *everyone* else on this thread disagrees with you is because you aren't Jewish? Wow.

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #505 on: December 08, 2016, 02:51:25 PM »
Heres a basic rundown of the case for those getting googly eyed,

Reuven, Shimon and Levi (hereinafter refered to as A,B, ad C) are all humans. A knows B while neither A nor B know C.
A wants points but has no spend. B has spend but wants no points. A tells B he can go trigger happy and spend whatever he wants and pay him back cash.
C has a business and provides services in exchange for money. B uses those services and pays for said services with the card from A that he was fully authorized to use by A himself.  A was fully aware of said purchase and had no issue with it. A couple months later A still had not received reimbursement from B. Desperate to recoup his losses he disputed all charges B made.

Following are some points taken out of this case. @JTZ Please let me know which numbers are false. Thanks

1) A authorized B to use his card for charges
2) Every charge B made was 100% authorized by A
3) C received the money from A with consent from A and B
4) According to the banks, You cannot dispute a charge that you authorized.
5) A disputed a charge that he authorized
6) Disputing all charges will not recoup any money from B
7) In order for A to successfully dispute he must lie and/or commit fraud
8 ) If all above transactions had been with cash A would not be able to knock on the door of C to ask for that cash back
9) The only way he can recoup the money is via dispute which must be done non truthfully
10) A dispute will 100% take the money away from C
11) A may not hold unrelated 3rd parties accountable for his loss due to B not paying back
12) B is the only one in the world that owes A money
13) Neither the bank nor C should be held accountable for these charges that were authorized
14) Even if 2 dozen individuals unethically and illegally fleece you of money that does not make it right to act unethically or illegally yourself.


Offline JoeyShmoe

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #506 on: December 08, 2016, 03:22:04 PM »
Is it possible for C to go and dispute the dispute? If C can prove to the CC company that the merchandise was sold or service was rendered, then the CC company should either side with the merchant (I was actually under the impression that the CC company reaches out to the merchant when there's a dispute, am I wrong?) or give a reason why they won't, in which case somebody will be proven a liar, no? I'm not well versed with the intricacies of CCs, so if this thought is out of line please ignore it.
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Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #507 on: December 08, 2016, 03:56:42 PM »
Is it possible for C to go and dispute the dispute? If C can prove to the CC company that the merchandise was sold or service was rendered, then the CC company should either side with the merchant (I was actually under the impression that the CC company reaches out to the merchant when there's a dispute, am I wrong?) or give a reason why they won't, in which case somebody will be proven a liar, no? I'm not well versed with the intricacies of CCs, so if this thought is out of line please ignore it.
The after story doesn't matter as much. Nobody screws with me and gets away with it....

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #508 on: December 08, 2016, 04:07:45 PM »
If it makes a difference, I asked my rav today, and he gave me the same answer that Emkay got.

A has no right to dispute the charge for two reasons.
1) He is essentially taking the money from C, not from B.

2) He is lying to the cc company, being that he did authorize the charge.

Don't see any reason why someone would think otherwise.
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline Dawie

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #509 on: December 08, 2016, 04:16:34 PM »
If it makes a difference, I asked my rav today, and he gave me the same answer that Emkay got.

A has no right to dispute the charge for two reasons.
1) He is essentially taking the money from C, not from B.

2) He is lying to the cc company, being that he did authorize the charge.

Don't see any reason why someone would think otherwise.
Dayan Roth in lakewood said often in his Choshen Mishpot shiurim that any charge back is stealing (he was talking about purchases)

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #510 on: December 08, 2016, 04:17:49 PM »
Dayan Roth in lakewood said often in his Choshen Mishpot shiurim that any charge back is stealing (he was talking about purchases)
I don't understand. How can every single chargeback be stealing ?
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #511 on: December 08, 2016, 04:17:50 PM »
Emkay is clearly right here.

A cc is telling the cc company that the transaction was not authorized, or not fulfilled properly.

Neither is true here.


Offline Dawie

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #512 on: December 08, 2016, 04:23:19 PM »
I don't understand. How can every single chargeback be stealing ?
because you are causing money to be removed from someones account that doesn;t want it to be removed?
If you have a gripe about a product go to beis din and mediate it
In the case of the last 10 pages, A would probably be allowed to do something like that to B possibly because we's just getting back what is rightfully his (Avid inish Dina l'nafshei)

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #513 on: December 08, 2016, 04:26:28 PM »


because you are causing money to be removed from someones account that doesn;t want it to be removed?
If you have a gripe about a product go to beis din and mediate it
In the case of the last 10 pages, A would probably be allowed to do something like that to B possibly because we's just getting back what is rightfully his (Avid inish Dina l'nafshei)
Did you hear this from him himself ?!
And who told you that a person has a right to be toifes bzman hazeh, especially without a beis din, bec. Of aved inish Dina l'nafshei ?

Life is as good as you make it...

Offline Dawie

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #514 on: December 08, 2016, 04:27:58 PM »
Did you hear this from him himself ?!
And who told you that a person has a right to be toifes bzman hazeh, especially without a beis din, bec. Of aved inish Dina l'nafshei ?
yes
i said possibly

Offline yakov116

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #515 on: December 08, 2016, 04:29:18 PM »
Did you hear this from him himself ?!
And who told you that a person has a right to be toifes bzman hazeh, especially without a beis din, bec. Of aved inish Dina l'nafshei ?


Who gave you the right to steal the extra $15 charge back fee?

Can i smash your window to get back my money?
Money talks...mine says goodbye!

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #516 on: December 08, 2016, 04:29:31 PM »
JTZ: Two points. Please tell me if you disagree with either.

1) The nature of a CC dispute is that the cardholder (A) is telling the CC company that the transaction in which the merchant (C) charged money to the credit card for a product or service was not legitimate.

2) In this case, the charge was legitimate.

Offline Emkay

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #517 on: December 08, 2016, 04:37:34 PM »
You guys all have wonderful points but your missing the point. I'm not sure which point your missing and I don't think anyone does but JTZ

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #518 on: December 08, 2016, 04:48:16 PM »
Who gave you the right to steal the extra $15 charge back fee?

Can i smash your window to get back my money?
When a merchant agrees to accept cc, I'd assume that part of the deal is his acceptance that a customer has a right to disputes, and the cc company acts as a mediator between them and the customer ?
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline Dawie

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #519 on: December 08, 2016, 04:50:41 PM »
When a merchant agrees to accept cc, I'd assume that part of the deal is his acceptance that a customer has a right to disputes, and the cc company acts as a mediator between them and the customer ?
interesting Svara