Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1183250 times)

Offline rileywiles23

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 108
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #520 on: December 08, 2016, 04:55:21 PM »
Who gave you the right to steal the extra $15 charge back fee?

Can i smash your window to get back my money?
When you pay a merchant for an item, there is an inherent agreement that your paying the seller X amount of money, to get said product.
It's the sellers responsibility to provide the item whole, and intact.
If that item comes damaged, then your not liable to pay, and if the seller doesn't want to accept a refund, then he's not living up to his side of the deal.
As long as the buyer isn't lying, then he can dispute the charge.
I have gotten this psak from more then one Rav, so I guess if Dayan Roth said no then YMMV
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 04:58:39 PM by rileywiles23 »
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline yakov116

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Posts: 1556
  • Total likes: 205
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #521 on: December 08, 2016, 05:01:18 PM »
When you pay a merchant for an item, there is an inherent agreement that your paying the seller X amount of money, to get said product.
It's the sellers responsibility to provide the item whole, and intact.
If that item comes damaged, then your not liable to pay, and if the seller doesn't want to accept a refund, then he's not living up to his side of the deal.
As long as the buyer isn't lying, then he can dispute the charge.
I have gotten this psak from more then one Rav, so I guess if Dayan Roth said no then YMMV
halivai people would think the way you are.

I am talking about where he felt that he deserved a refund and decided that if you don't want to work with me i will dispute. Such a case belongs by a rav or B"D
In such a case you would be stealing the extra $15 even if at the end of the day he would have to give back some
Money talks...mine says goodbye!

Offline yakov116

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Posts: 1556
  • Total likes: 205
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #522 on: December 08, 2016, 05:03:08 PM »
When a merchant agrees to accept cc, I'd assume that part of the deal is his acceptance that a customer has a right to disputes, and the cc company acts as a mediator between them and the customer ?

The problem is that line is waaaay too broad
Money talks...mine says goodbye!

Offline rileywiles23

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 108
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #523 on: December 08, 2016, 05:12:51 PM »
The problem is that line is waaaay too broad
I'm not a merchant so I don't know. There aren't T&C in regards to the agreement between merchant and the cc company ?
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline yakov116

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Posts: 1556
  • Total likes: 205
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #524 on: December 08, 2016, 05:19:55 PM »
I'm not a merchant so I don't know. There aren't T&C in regards to the agreement between merchant and the cc company ?
Yes but the customer can claim whatever they want and it's on the merchant to prove otherwise
Money talks...mine says goodbye!

Offline rileywiles23

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 108
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #525 on: December 08, 2016, 05:22:07 PM »
Yes but the customer can claim whatever they want and it's on the merchant to prove otherwise
But if the customer is actually correct, then the merchant inherently agrees to whatever chargeback will cost him ?
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline cozmohoot

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 4440
  • Total likes: 95
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #526 on: December 08, 2016, 05:23:48 PM »
What is SOP that was referred to earlier?

Offline yakov116

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Posts: 1556
  • Total likes: 205
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #527 on: December 08, 2016, 05:27:35 PM »
But if the customer is actually correct, then the merchant inherently agrees to whatever chargeback will cost him ?
Correct but part of the terms are that the customer attempted to contact the merchant and 90% of the time people lie...
Money talks...mine says goodbye!

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1884
  • Total likes: 230
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #528 on: December 08, 2016, 05:44:09 PM »
Whoa. So the reason *everyone* else on this thread disagrees with you is because you aren't Jewish? Wow.
Again you missed the point.  :)
You all follow different (insert your own word) than me. I would expect you all come to the same conclusion because:
If it makes a difference, I asked my rav today, and he gave me the same answer that Emkay got.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline rileywiles23

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 108
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #529 on: December 08, 2016, 05:44:16 PM »
Correct but part of the terms are that the customer attempted to contact the merchant and 90% of the time people lie...
I'm from the other 10%
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1884
  • Total likes: 230
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #530 on: December 08, 2016, 05:47:21 PM »
You all agree that B screwed A, correct?
How about we just let A settle it this way?
The after story doesn't matter as much. Nobody screws with me and gets away with it....
:)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline David Smith

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 8075
  • Total likes: 212
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #531 on: December 08, 2016, 05:53:50 PM »
Again you missed the point.  :)
You all follow different (insert your own word) than me. I would expect you all come to the same conclusion because:
Didn't you agree that

2 - A has a right to dispute the charge. Is it ethical or legal, no.

Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline cholent

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 2647
  • Total likes: 518
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #532 on: December 08, 2016, 05:55:00 PM »
The after story doesn't matter as much. Nobody screws with me and gets away with it....

In that case, the after story becomes very interesting. Fill us in, please!
Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1884
  • Total likes: 230
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #533 on: December 08, 2016, 05:59:39 PM »
Didn't you agree that
...and what does that have to do with the point I made? If I say something is illegal and or unethical and your rav disagrees with me are you going to believe me?. Let me answer that for you. Not a chance in h***!!!
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Emkay

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 14295
  • Total likes: 376
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 35
    • View Profile
  • Location: Where I ought to be
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #534 on: December 08, 2016, 06:00:11 PM »
Again you missed the point.  :)
You all follow different (insert your own word) than me. I would expect you all come to the same conclusion because:
If it simply was a case of halacha there is zero chance everyone would agree. Every 3 people would have twice as many opinions. Its evidently something else.

Offline yakov116

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Posts: 1556
  • Total likes: 205
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #535 on: December 08, 2016, 06:00:28 PM »
Money talks...mine says goodbye!

Offline David Smith

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 8075
  • Total likes: 212
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #536 on: December 08, 2016, 06:02:15 PM »
...and what does that have to do with the point I made? If I say something is illegal and or unethical and your rav disagrees with me are you going to believe me?. Let me answer that for you. Not a chance in h***!!!
You are saying we all disagree with you and have a different mindset because we are Jewish. Maybe it's just the fact that it's illegal and unethical (and you are personally screwing over an innocent individual).
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1884
  • Total likes: 230
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #537 on: December 08, 2016, 06:04:05 PM »
You are saying we all disagree with you and have a different mindset because we are Jewish. Maybe it's just the fact that it's illegal or unethical.
How about you answer a question for a change? Is this deal being discussed 100% legal and ethical?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4891
  • Total likes: 14686
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #538 on: December 08, 2016, 06:18:48 PM »
Again you missed the point.  :)
You all follow different (insert your own word) than me. I would expect you all come to the same conclusion because:

Except I wasn't referring to Jewish law.

You, of all people, have seen how argumentative we get when it comes to anything close to Jewish law or traditions. That there is such strong consensus in this case shows its an objective conclusion.

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1884
  • Total likes: 230
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #539 on: December 08, 2016, 06:22:32 PM »
How about you answer a question for a change? Is this deal being discussed 100% legal and ethical?
Can someone check on DS for me to see if he is OK. I would hate to think he is afraid to answer the question.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(