Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1183218 times)

Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1660 on: January 25, 2019, 08:14:57 AM »
here

They weren’t a buying group. They actually had very competent buyers, and the underlying fundamentals of their initial products was very promising. HNWI’s (Lakewood standards) were the first round of investors, and they did very competent due diligence. However, the market saturation point for that set of products was pretty narrow, הן מצד the suppliers, and הן מצד, the actual demand. Also, it was very labor intensive to turn around, and the “warehouse” was run pretty inefficiently, which increased overhead (the attitude was we’ll hire until we get the guy who can do it. Now imagine the HR mess).

So they turned to other products. Now the washing machine started spinning water, as most of them couldn’t return over their initial purchase price (I guess that’s buying group style) but the high overhead shot up even more!

Then they bought retail stores in a line they had decent experience with, sunk serious money into it and opened a t****ing company to boot, which was a cause for internal politics, and all went downhill.

In the meantime, the returns on the initial products disappeared to competitors (very common in Amazon, a 2 year cycle for a hot product is considered an eternity). So now nothing was making money, and suddenly the fixed costs of keeping the shop open made them desperate.

At no point did they intend to lose a dime. They had a innocent vision of becoming the next Klein-Pikarski, and understood that they need to take risks. But unfortunately, the risks weren’t calculated and the רבשע wanted otherwise. There were Heter Iskas for every dime. They were non PL.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 08:39:48 AM by YesThatsMe »

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1661 on: January 25, 2019, 09:04:00 AM »
HNWI?

Offline chbochur

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1662 on: January 25, 2019, 09:08:43 AM »
They weren’t a buying group. They actually had very competent buyers, and the underlying fundamentals of their initial products was very promising. HNWI’s (Lakewood standards) were the first round of investors, and they did very competent due diligence. However, the market saturation point for that set of products was pretty narrow, הן מצד the suppliers, and הן מצד, the actual demand. Also, it was very labor intensive to turn around, and the “warehouse” was run pretty inefficiently, which increased overhead (the attitude was we’ll hire until we get the guy who can do it. Now imagine the HR mess).

So they turned to other products. Now the washing machine started spinning water, as most of them couldn’t return over their initial purchase price (I guess that’s buying group style) but the high overhead shot up even more!

Then they bought retail stores in a line they had decent experience with, sunk serious money into it and opened a t****ing company to boot, which was a cause for internal politics, and all went downhill.

In the meantime, the returns on the initial products disappeared to competitors (very common in Amazon, a 2 year cycle for a hot product is considered an eternity). So now nothing was making money, and suddenly the fixed costs of keeping the shop open made them desperate.

At no point did they intend to lose a dime. They had a innocent vision of becoming the next Klein-Pikarski, and understood that they need to take risks. But unfortunately, the risks weren’t calculated and the רבשע wanted otherwise. There were Heter Iskas for every dime. They were non PL.
Not sure where you're getting your details from but you're missing a key point here as to where all the money was drained to

Offline cmey

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1663 on: January 25, 2019, 09:22:49 AM »
HNWI?

High Net Worth Individuals.

I’m guessing those were made whole and the last guys on the bandwagon are now holding the bag.

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1664 on: January 25, 2019, 09:25:53 AM »
Not sure where you're getting your details from but you're missing a key point here as to where all the money was drained to

I once worked for them.
Quote from: YitzyS
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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1665 on: January 25, 2019, 09:43:14 AM »

So I guess he left before this key turning point happened

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1666 on: January 25, 2019, 09:48:02 AM »
They weren’t a buying group. They actually had very competent buyers, and the underlying fundamentals of their initial products was very promising. HNWI’s (Lakewood standards) were the first round of investors, and they did very competent due diligence. However, the market saturation point for that set of products was pretty narrow, הן מצד the suppliers, and הן מצד, the actual demand. Also, it was very labor intensive to turn around, and the “warehouse” was run pretty inefficiently, which increased overhead (the attitude was we’ll hire until we get the guy who can do it. Now imagine the HR mess).

So they turned to other products. Now the washing machine started spinning water, as most of them couldn’t return over their initial purchase price (I guess that’s buying group style) but the high overhead shot up even more!

Then they bought retail stores in a line they had decent experience with, sunk serious money into it and opened a t****ing company to boot, which was a cause for internal politics, and all went downhill.

In the meantime, the returns on the initial products disappeared to competitors (very common in Amazon, a 2 year cycle for a hot product is considered an eternity). So now nothing was making money, and suddenly the fixed costs of keeping the shop open made them desperate.

At no point did they intend to lose a dime. They had a innocent vision of becoming the next Klein-Pikarski, and understood that they need to take risks. But unfortunately, the risks weren’t calculated and the רבשע wanted otherwise. There were Heter Iskas for every dime. They were non PL.

Very few Ponzis start off trying to be one. They start as a legitimate investment just like Madoff's hedge fund and Dweks real estate. The issue is them borrowing from one person to pay the other. That is where it becomes a Ponzi scheme. What makes this one much more egregious than the others is how they went after the those desperate and took advantage of them to get them credit card point and are now leaving behind ruined lives of people who may never get out of their hole for the rest of their lives. Madoff's and Dwek's investors made poor investment decisions but very few are left in total financial ruin like the victims here may be. We are dealing with people who are starting off with little to no available money who not only lost what they had but are now in debt for amounts they can never pay and can end up in bankruptcy and unable to ever get meaningful credit for the rest of their lives. The way they now mentioned how if the victims start contesting charges and going to authorities they may also end up with criminal culpability brings out even more their willingness to play games on the cheshbon of other people who don't realize what they are doing. Uch.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1667 on: January 25, 2019, 09:54:33 AM »
Very few Ponzis start off trying to be one. They start as a legitimate investment just like Madoff's hedge fund and Dweks real estate. The issue is them borrowing from one person to pay the other. That is where it becomes a Ponzi scheme. What makes this one much more egregious than the others is how they went after the those desperate and took advantage of them to get them credit card point and are now leaving behind ruined lives of people who may never get out of their hole for the rest of their lives. Madoff's and Dwek's investors made poor investment decisions but very few are left in total financial ruin like the victims here may be. We are dealing with people who are starting off with little to no available money who not only lost what they had but are now in debt for amounts they can never pay and can end up in bankruptcy and unable to ever get meaningful credit for the rest of their lives. The way they now mentioned how if the victims start contesting charges and going to authorities they may also end up with criminal culpability brings out even more their willingness to play games on the cheshbon of other people who don't realize what they are doing. Uch.
+1000

This is the worst type of Ponzi scheme. Poor, gullible people with no money to lose, now in debt for more than they can ever afford to pay. Horrible.

Quote
unable to ever get meaningful credit for the rest of their lives
Bit of an exaggeration but I get your point
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline aygart

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1668 on: January 25, 2019, 09:59:35 AM »
Bit of an exaggeration but I get your point
It is not easy to get credit after bankruptcy. You don't think some will have no choice but to end up there?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1669 on: January 25, 2019, 10:01:44 AM »
It is not easy to get credit after bankruptcy. You don't think some will have no choice but to end up there?
I agree that some will but you can definitely get meaningful credit (eventually) after a bankruptcy and that’s the worst case scenario for these people. I’m not disagreeing with you that it will be badly damaged long term.
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Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1670 on: January 25, 2019, 10:08:15 AM »
High Net Worth Individuals.

I’m guessing those were made whole and the last guys on the bandwagon are now holding the bag.

NOT TRUE!!! I met one very recently he said he all but given up. He specifically said he can stomach it end of day but feels real bad for the newer guys.

Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1671 on: January 25, 2019, 10:09:04 AM »
So I guess he left before this key turning point happened

Most probably. The writing was on the wall then already though

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1672 on: January 25, 2019, 10:11:14 AM »
Most probably. The writing was on the wall then already though
True but it was somewhat bearable. This threw them over the edge.

Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1673 on: January 25, 2019, 10:11:58 AM »
Very few Ponzis start off trying to be one. They start as a legitimate investment just like Madoff's hedge fund and Dweks real estate. The issue is them borrowing from one person to pay the other. That is where it becomes a Ponzi scheme. What makes this one much more egregious than the others is how they went after the those desperate and took advantage of them to get them credit card point and are now leaving behind ruined lives of people who may never get out of their hole for the rest of their lives. Madoff's and Dwek's investors made poor investment decisions but very few are left in total financial ruin like the victims here may be. We are dealing with people who are starting off with little to no available money who not only lost what they had but are now in debt for amounts they can never pay and can end up in bankruptcy and unable to ever get meaningful credit for the rest of their lives. The way they now mentioned how if the victims start contesting charges and going to authorities they may also end up with criminal culpability brings out even more their willingness to play games on the cheshbon of other people who don't realize what they are doing. Uch.

Now you’re just being a hater. If you would sit with these people for half hour you would understand that they are just incompetent businessmen. Meant-to-be-lifetime-employees who thought they struck gold.

Good, honest, hardworking, uneducated guys.

Honestly, they took “investments” and GUARANTEED the principle (making it a loan). They never understood the difference, and so were never able to turn around and tell anyone- Sorry, this investment failed and you lost your money.

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1674 on: January 25, 2019, 10:33:22 AM »
Now you’re just being a hater. If you would sit with these people for half hour you would understand that they are just incompetent businessmen. Meant-to-be-lifetime-employees who thought they struck gold.

Good, honest, hardworking, uneducated guys.

Honestly, they took “investments” and GUARANTEED the principle (making it a loan). They never understood the difference, and so were never able to turn around and tell anyone- Sorry, this investment failed and you lost your money.

I think you are blinded by your involvement there. You have not yet addressed any of the reasons why it is a Ponzi JUST LIKE ANY OTHER and how they weren't preying on little guys who they had no business taking any money from in the first place.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1675 on: January 25, 2019, 10:37:01 AM »
I think you are blinded by your involvement there. You have not yet addressed any of the reasons why it is a Ponzi JUST LIKE ANY OTHER and how they weren't preying on little guys who they had no business taking any money from in the first place.

My “involvement” is that I’m gone for two years now. Back then things were pretty stable.

Ponzi’s, similarly to Ponzi and Madoff (can’t opine on Dweck) are businesses that evolved into “fake operations”.

There were no fake operations here, there was a money losing business.

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1676 on: January 25, 2019, 10:40:37 AM »
My “involvement” is that I’m gone for two years now. Back then things were pretty stable.

Ponzi’s, similarly to Ponzi and Madoff (can’t opine on Dweck) are businesses that evolved into “fake operations”.

There were no fake operations here, there was a money losing business.

Madoff had real operations as did almost every other Ponzi. They are simply that the took advantage of others once their business went sour. Just like these guys.
"Donkeys live a long time.  None of you has ever seen a dead donkey"
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 10:54:34 AM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1677 on: January 25, 2019, 11:17:33 AM »
Madoff had real operations as did almost every other Ponzi. They are simply that the took advantage of others once their business went sour. Just like these guys.
"Donkeys live a long time.  None of you has ever seen a dead donkey"

Wrong re Madoff, wrong re these guys

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1678 on: January 25, 2019, 11:18:50 AM »
They weren’t a buying group. They actually had very competent buyers, and the underlying fundamentals of their initial products was very promising. HNWI’s (Lakewood standards) were the first round of investors, and they did very competent due diligence. However, the market saturation point for that set of products was pretty narrow, הן מצד the suppliers, and הן מצד, the actual demand. Also, it was very labor intensive to turn around, and the “warehouse” was run pretty inefficiently, which increased overhead (the attitude was we’ll hire until we get the guy who can do it. Now imagine the HR mess).

So they turned to other products. Now the washing machine started spinning water, as most of them couldn’t return over their initial purchase price (I guess that’s buying group style) but the high overhead shot up even more!

Then they bought retail stores in a line they had decent experience with, sunk serious money into it and opened a t****ing company to boot, which was a cause for internal politics, and all went downhill.

In the meantime, the returns on the initial products disappeared to competitors (very common in Amazon, a 2 year cycle for a hot product is considered an eternity). So now nothing was making money, and suddenly the fixed costs of keeping the shop open made them desperate.

At no point did they intend to lose a dime. They had a innocent vision of becoming the next Klein-Pikarski, and understood that they need to take risks. But unfortunately, the risks weren’t calculated and the רבשע wanted otherwise. There were Heter Iskas for every dime. They were non PL.
It’s good they had a hetter Iska. Could you imagine if they stole the money without that?  ::)

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1679 on: January 25, 2019, 11:24:55 AM »
There were no fake operations here, there was a money losing business.
They clearly write in the email that the last year it became a Ponzi scheme. The money they swiped went to no business operations.

..hey, why was the email deleted?