Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1182751 times)

Offline zale

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1860 on: February 03, 2019, 05:56:15 PM »
Your post is worthy of a much more public forum. It could save people. Your post, along with R' Mendel Shafran's guidelines for investing, should be posted at least monthly on Jewish Community websites, so we don't hear of so many such cases.

Coming from פרשת משפטים, a better awareness of רבית issues, and the need to get a Heter Iska edited by a competent Halachic authority (who will presumably insist that the parties signing understand it, as quite a few poskim require that) would also go a long way in avoiding such issues, as well as better scrupulousness in observance of Torah and Mitzvos.

The individual who scammed people out of $13 million last year had a Heter Iska built into many of his contracts and signed by Rabbonim. In fact, you can find these contracts by searching the NYS court database.

It’s good to know the laws of Ribbis, but it will not save you from getting scammed.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1861 on: February 03, 2019, 06:03:03 PM »

The individual who scammed people out of $13 million last year had a Heter Iska built into many of his contracts and signed by Rabbonim. In fact, you can find these contracts by searching the NYS court database.

It’s good to know the laws of Ribbis, but it will not save you from getting scammed.

And the people that lost money with him were mostly “Accredited Investors” who should understand risks (though in that case FWIU it might have been outright fraud, with money never invested in deals that were presented), and can more easily recover from the loss (which I am not downplaying one bit).

That being said, I personally know someone who lost 50k with him. This was money earmarked for a down payment on a house. It’s sad that the planned home purchase needed to be pushed off.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline zh cohen

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1862 on: February 03, 2019, 06:25:41 PM »
R' Mendel Shafran's guidelines for investing

Link?

Offline ludmila

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1863 on: February 03, 2019, 06:28:41 PM »
Bankruptcy can work w/o them losing whatever money they have in their bank account, houses, cars etc. ?
In bankruptcy, are you allowed to keep your home if it is fully paid off? Most states do not, I am correct?
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Offline ludmila

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1864 on: February 03, 2019, 06:45:24 PM »
The individual who scammed people out of $13 million last year had a Heter Iska built into many of his contracts and signed by Rabbonim. In fact, you can find these contracts by searching the NYS court database.

It’s good to know the laws of Ribbis, but it will not save you from getting scammed.
Was he convicted?
I was the Best,still the Best, and will always be the Best.
Pele Good,Maradona Better, George Best.

Offline zale

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1865 on: February 03, 2019, 06:45:24 PM »
In bankruptcy, are you allowed to keep your home if it is fully paid off? Most states do not, I am correct?

This is a question for a bankruptcy lawyer, but from what I understand it varies from case to case.

First, did this person as an individual ever guaranty the payments, or was it guaranteed under the business? If it was under the business than he can simply file for bankruptcy of his business and his personal assets are untouchable.

To go after his personal assets you would need to either prove that he personally guaranteed it, or you would need to sue him for fraud — which is always an uphill battle. You would need to prove to the court that when he took the money he intended to commit fraud. Extremely difficult to prove.

Assuming you cross that bridge and the court rules in your favor that he is personally liable, in order to seize his home it would have to be in his name only. If his wife is a joint owner you will not be able to seize it. Even if it is in his name only, you would need to get a court order in his state. Then you would have to file the order with the sheriff’s office and pay some significant fees. The sheriff might request a bond as collateral until the home is sold. The process of selling can then take years.

Offline chevron

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1866 on: February 03, 2019, 07:18:39 PM »
And the people that lost money with him were mostly “Accredited Investors” who should understand risks (though in that case FWIU it might have been outright fraud, with money never invested in deals that were presented), and can more easily recover from the loss (which I am not downplaying one bit).

That being said, I personally know someone who lost 50k with him. This was money earmarked for a down payment on a house. It’s sad that the planned home purchase needed to be pushed off.

A simple Google search would have told them the full picture. Whatever happened to due diligence?

Offline Menachem613

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1867 on: February 03, 2019, 07:23:16 PM »
A simple Google search would have told them the full picture. Whatever happened to due diligence?

That’s for well paid lawyers. 

Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1868 on: February 03, 2019, 11:19:28 PM »
From what I heard (admittedly third hand), the merchant and his lawyers claim to have a large amount of inventory which they will use to pay back (all/most?) capital once they move it.

That does not mean that the victims should just take their word for it, they should have their own attorney verify the claim.
For my personal fist hand knowledge: The “inventory” they have is garbage that was overpaid for to begin with.

Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1869 on: February 03, 2019, 11:27:17 PM »
This is a question for a bankruptcy lawyer, but from what I understand it varies from case to case.

First, did this person as an individual ever guaranty the payments, or was it guaranteed under the business? If it was under the business than he can simply file for bankruptcy of his business and his personal assets are untouchable.

To go after his personal assets you would need to either prove that he personally guaranteed it, or you would need to sue him for fraud — which is always an uphill battle. You would need to prove to the court that when he took the money he intended to commit fraud. Extremely difficult to prove.

Assuming you cross that bridge and the court rules in your favor that he is personally liable, in order to seize his home it would have to be in his name only. If his wife is a joint owner you will not be able to seize it. Even if it is in his name only, you would need to get a court order in his state. Then you would have to file the order with the sheriff’s office and pay some significant fees. The sheriff might request a bond as collateral until the home is sold. The process of selling can then take years.

He personally guaranteed everything to his initial investors when he began 3-4 years ago, I have seen all the contracts.

The guy doesn’t know the difference between a loan and an investment, and thinks professionals are those who have signatures in their emails.

Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1870 on: February 03, 2019, 11:33:05 PM »
Some of you just don’t get it, these are people with 0 education, spent their lives as employees (one in the store on Kingston he eventually bought, the other in a Lakewood bakery followed by some Trenton property management company that went bust).

Guys with Lakewood levels credit card debt, whose financial acumen is derived from Ami biztank, who happened to chance upon a great product they were able to buy through their store for Amazon.

They turned their whole business online, used messed up accounting methods, JV’ed with some failing houseware stores, some scammy furniture business, secondhand trucks, and a payroll to rival Goldman Sachs.

Nebach.

Offline ludmila

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1871 on: February 03, 2019, 11:34:46 PM »
Some of you just don’t get it, these are people with 0 education, spent their lives as employees (one in the store on Kingston he eventually bought, the other in a Lakewood bakery followed by some Trenton property management company that went bust).

Guys with Lakewood levels credit card debt, whose financial acumen is derived from Ami biztank, who happened to chance upon a great product they were able to buy through their store for Amazon.

They turned their whole business online, used messed up accounting methods, JV’ed with some failing houseware stores, some scammy furniture business, secondhand trucks, and a payroll to rival Goldman Sachs.

Nebach.
Wow, scary--
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Offline zale

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1872 on: February 03, 2019, 11:49:23 PM »
For my personal fist hand knowledge: The “inventory” they have is garbage that was overpaid for to begin with.

If this is true then the money is lost. This should serve as a stark warning to people.

Offline S209

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1873 on: February 04, 2019, 03:46:00 AM »
If this is true then the money is lost. This should serve as a stark warning to people.
+13M

....Hence this thread
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline cmey

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1874 on: February 04, 2019, 08:53:57 AM »
Some of you just don’t get it, these are people with 0 education, spent their lives as employees (one in the store on Kingston he eventually bought, the other in a Lakewood bakery followed by some Trenton property management company that went bust).

Guys with Lakewood levels credit card debt, whose financial acumen is derived from Ami biztank, who happened to chance upon a great product they were able to buy through their store for Amazon.

They turned their whole business online, used messed up accounting methods, JV’ed with some failing houseware stores, some scammy furniture business, secondhand trucks, and a payroll to rival Goldman Sachs.

Nebach.

What are Lakewood levels credit card debt?

Online aygart

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1875 on: February 04, 2019, 10:04:26 AM »
What are Lakewood levels credit card debt?
Whatever amount it takes to fill the chip on his shoulder.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1876 on: February 04, 2019, 10:07:20 AM »
For my personal fist hand knowledge: The “inventory” they have is garbage that was overpaid for to begin with.
who happened to chance upon a great product they were able to buy through their store for Amazon.
???
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline gingyguy

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1877 on: February 04, 2019, 10:08:45 AM »
What are Lakewood levels credit card debt?
this is grounds for a new thread. Do you live in Lakewood and how much credit card debt are you in
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1878 on: February 04, 2019, 10:10:12 AM »
Some of you just don’t get it, these are people with 0 education, spent their lives as employees (one in the store on Kingston he eventually bought, the other in a Lakewood bakery followed by some Trenton property management company that went bust).

Guys with Lakewood levels credit card debt, whose financial acumen is derived from Ami biztank, who happened to chance upon a great product they were able to buy through their store for Amazon.

They turned their whole business online, used messed up accounting methods, JV’ed with some failing houseware stores, some scammy furniture business, secondhand trucks, and a payroll to rival Goldman Sachs.

Nebach.

"Messed up accounting methods"

You're giving too much credit. I can't imagine they had any "accounting"

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1879 on: February 04, 2019, 10:11:14 AM »
this is grounds for a new thread. Do you live in Lakewood and how much credit card debt are you in
I live in Lakewood and have zero revolving credit card debt. To be paid off each month is a different story. I once opened a thread about that. Same goes for most people that I would know if they had CC debt. A couple have some higher debt levels. I know that some large gemachs in town ask before they lend if the person has any CC debt and will not lend to someone who does.
Feelings don't care about your facts