Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1182863 times)

Offline skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2020 on: February 12, 2019, 12:57:26 PM »
can someone summarize for the non lawyers among us?
+1  :-\
As best as I can tell, a loan gemach was used to facilitate the cc charges from the 'lenders' to the 'borrower'. One of the 'lenders' started to dispute upwards of $400k that I guess he was never repaid, and the loan gemach filed against that 'lender' to prevent any further chargebacks (and I assume to force a reversal of said chargebacks). The whole thing is crazy.

Fascinating (and sad) that the 'swiper/borrower' appears to have insulated themselves somewhat from future problems by not processing the cc swipes themselves.

ETA: Seems like there were other facilitating entities between this 'lender' and the 'swiper/borrower' as well, not sure if there are separate cases about those.

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2021 on: February 12, 2019, 01:01:34 PM »

I found the right doc now, so it seems like the swiper thought that he would get away with somehow scamming the gemach?
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Offline chevron

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2022 on: February 12, 2019, 01:10:37 PM »
What other entities? It says the 'lender' allowed the gemach to charge his cc. The gemach then gave the money to the 'borrower'. The 'borrower' alleges that he repaid the 'lender' directly. But if that were true, why dispute? It's possible that there were many other charges the 'lender' allowed, and on balance the 'borrower' still owes the 'lender', so the 'lender' just picked random charges to dispute. That seems a lot more likely than the 'lender' has been repaid in full and randomly decides to do chargebacks.

Also, I glanced at the other exhibits. Seems pretty clear that the 'borrower' got a lawyer to file on behalf of several different intermediaries, against any 'lender' that did chargebacks.

he disputed cc charges supposedly based on other business disputes

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2023 on: February 12, 2019, 01:17:49 PM »
he disputed cc charges supposedly based on other business disputes
meaning other monies that may have been owed to him? Regardless clearly he was trying to scam the gemach here...  Not sure why he thought he would get away with it
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


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Offline skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2024 on: February 12, 2019, 01:27:47 PM »
I found the right doc now, so it seems like the swiper thought that he would get away with somehow scamming the gemach?
meaning other monies that may have been owed to him? Regardless clearly he was trying to scam the gemach here...  Not sure why he thought he would get away with it
The swiper/borrower is probably the one coordinating for the gemach and other facilitators, based on the fact that it's all the same lawyer. If you're asking why the borrower thought he'd get away with the chargebacks, there's nothing in there from the borrower's lawyer yet, so I guess we'll wait and see.

Offline joey89

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2025 on: February 12, 2019, 01:33:09 PM »
but product/services were never received.
Not much too lose by trying (except they all think that somehow they will still be paid back).
Ianal however would imagine that there is plenty to lose IF the card issuer decides to press charges for fraudulent claims (which probably will happen eventually to prevent others from trying in the future)

Offline yesitsme

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« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 03:34:43 PM by yesitsme »
["-"]

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Offline Dan

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Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2029 on: February 12, 2019, 02:12:31 PM »
Any more cases like this?

Did a scary lady call you about lahyuhs in suits yet for posting this?

Offline Moshe123

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2030 on: February 12, 2019, 02:36:27 PM »
Read the whole thing. From the side that it's written (didn't hear the other side), it's a simple story. The lender probably was owed money by the facilitator and decided to screw him via disputes with a different merchant. Perhaps the facilitator also charged at other gemachs.

Offline LoLo

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2031 on: February 12, 2019, 02:38:14 PM »
Seems to me that the gmach and the borrower is one and the same.

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2032 on: February 12, 2019, 02:42:19 PM »
Seems to me that the gmach and the borrower is one and the same.

-1

They are on the same "team" in this dispute, but the borrower was using the gemach (and other businesses as well) to charge the lenders cards and give him the money.

Offline LoLo

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2033 on: February 12, 2019, 02:43:51 PM »
He was working for him, and was buying inventory for him + swiping through the gmach for him.

Offline joey89

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2034 on: February 12, 2019, 03:11:29 PM »

Online zh cohen

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2035 on: February 12, 2019, 04:05:58 PM »
He was working for him, and was buying inventory for him + swiping through the gmach for him.

Where are you getting that impression from?

Offline LoLo

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2036 on: February 12, 2019, 04:14:21 PM »
Where are you getting that impression from?
One of the docs. The borrower requested access to Amazon accounts as well.

Offline AJK

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2037 on: February 12, 2019, 04:20:16 PM »
Skimmed it.  At first blush, it appears that despite being paid back in full, lender disputed the charges anyway.  That doesn't make much sense unless he was outright trying to defraud the gemach or the ultimate borrowers (but he had to know that a dispute against the gmach would not hurt the borrowers, unless he thought the dispute would cause the gmach to assert leverage on the borrowers to pay back money otherwise owed...).

I may have missed something that involved other deals and the lender not being paid back in full. But I agree, unless outright fraud, I don't see how lender disputes charges for which he's been paid back fully, unless something else is in there that I missed.
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Offline AJK

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2038 on: February 12, 2019, 04:23:29 PM »
One of the docs. The borrower requested access to Amazon accounts as well.

That has nothing to do with this case.  That case was cited simply to support the argument that the Court can and should preliminary enjoin defendant from making any additional chargebacks until the motion is heard.

The Court didn't buy it.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline AJK

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2039 on: February 12, 2019, 04:30:18 PM »
ETA:

There does seem to have been an allegation that defendant threatened to (and apparently followed through on) dispute the transactions as a result of some other dispute.




I foresee this being an issue for defendant (fraudulent chargebacks), the gmach (misuse of merchant agreement), and "K" (misuse of CCs). What a mess.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 04:39:49 PM by AJK »
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