Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1182854 times)

Online aro123

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 142
  • Total likes: 27
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2520 on: February 25, 2019, 09:53:03 AM »
i didn't say it is the same.  i said that people always risk more than they can afford.  and all suppliers take risks. but people feel the need to make fun of people for taking this risk

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67599
  • Total likes: 16912
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2521 on: February 25, 2019, 09:54:13 AM »
Making fun? Always risk more than they can afford?

What in the world are you talking about?

Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17398
  • Total likes: 14338
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2522 on: February 25, 2019, 10:07:26 AM »
i didn't say it is the same.  i said that people always risk more than they can afford.  and all suppliers take risks. but people feel the need to make fun of people for taking this risk
I would bet that most of these people don't even understand that they are risking anything
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline stooges44

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 6454
  • Total likes: 2748
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 269
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2523 on: February 25, 2019, 10:13:33 AM »
If it's not free shipping it's not worth it.

Offline cmey

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 432
  • Total likes: 260
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: lakewood
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2524 on: February 25, 2019, 10:18:58 AM »
I would bet that most of these people don't even understand that they are risking anything

They have no clue. I Know a guy who sold AA and had his account frozen. He told AA it was stolen. They wanted a police report so he filed one. For a measly grand worth of miles. People have no sense of the risks they take which are way out of proportion to the potential reward....

Offline gingyguy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 1434
  • Total likes: 419
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 36
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: I don't like to brag
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2525 on: February 25, 2019, 10:20:09 AM »
I'm just glad none of this existed when I was 21.

Poor kid.  :'(
how do you explain the fellow who donated $890?
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17398
  • Total likes: 14338
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2526 on: February 25, 2019, 10:27:40 AM »
Oh. How I regret not learning Korean.
Google translate is much more fun.

Google translate is a משל הדיוט for the man of the reshoim. At the end it will taste like what you want but you need to first crush and grind it.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline eliteflyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Posts: 1517
  • Total likes: 60
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2527 on: February 25, 2019, 10:40:08 AM »
I am currently swiping for a company, in the 100-200k range.

What more can I do for due diligence?
I negotiate and represent clients on corporate finance lending transactions. This company clearly can't access the capital markets or loan markets (on a secured or unsecured basis), but you think you've correctly priced and underwritten (i) unsecured lines of credit, (ii) without appropriate contractual documentation on terms, including remedies, covenants, enforcement, maturity and (iii) which in any event probably materially violates the terms of the applicable credit card agreements, applicable merchant contracts and law? What you describe is not due diligence. It's sticking your head in the sand.

Offline cmey

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 432
  • Total likes: 260
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: lakewood
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2528 on: February 25, 2019, 10:50:59 AM »
I negotiate and represent clients on corporate finance lending transactions. This company clearly can't access the capital markets or loan markets (on a secured or unsecured basis), but you think you've correctly priced and underwritten (i) unsecured lines of credit, (ii) without appropriate contractual documentation on terms, including remedies, covenants, enforcement, maturity and (iii) which in any event probably materially violates the terms of the applicable credit card agreements, applicable merchant contracts and law? What you describe is not due diligence. It's sticking your head in the sand.

Pretty compelling, but are you making the case that there are no situations where a company would legitimately need to secure funding somewhere other than the capital or loan markets? A relatively recent startup etc. without extensive history or documentation may be on a fairly secure footing but unable to access traditional funding sources. It does not necessarily indicate a floundering company with a terrible balance sheet.

That being said there is a significant risk involved that is not even remotely being compensated.

Offline Aussie88

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 221
  • Total likes: 15
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Where the sun is (almost) always shining
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2529 on: February 25, 2019, 11:00:24 AM »
I negotiate and represent clients on corporate finance lending transactions. This company clearly can't access the capital markets or loan markets (on a secured or unsecured basis), but you think you've correctly priced and underwritten (i) unsecured lines of credit, (ii) without appropriate contractual documentation on terms, including remedies, covenants, enforcement, maturity and (iii) which in any event probably materially violates the terms of the applicable credit card agreements, applicable merchant contracts and law? What you describe is not due diligence. It's sticking your head in the sand.
Why is everyone always saying that if company needs to use credit cards it means they can't get loans or money elsewhere? For some companies, swiping credit cards is a free 30-45 day loan. Their vendor/supplier charges the same amount whether they pay by cash or credit, so why not use a credit card?
I'm obviously not talking about the companies that that are using them to swipe to themselves. That is 100% unsustainable and should raise lots of red flags. But to pay vendors direct? Why shouldn't the company get the extra time to pay for the goods and help with cash flow?
I'm NOT saying it should be done, but it's very different to companies swiping to themselves.

Online jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 13471
  • Total likes: 6096
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 29367
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2530 on: February 25, 2019, 11:02:01 AM »
Pretty compelling, but are you making the case that there are no situations where a company would legitimately need to secure funding somewhere other than the capital or loan markets? A relatively recent startup etc. without extensive history or documentation may be on a fairly secure footing but unable to access traditional funding sources. It does not necessarily indicate a floundering company with a terrible balance sheet.

That being said there is a significant risk involved that is not even remotely being compensated.
He is making the case that the user likely never even heard of steps i, ii, or iii yet he is loaning $100k every month.
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2531 on: February 25, 2019, 11:06:53 AM »
Why is everyone always saying that if company needs to use credit cards it means they can't get loans or money elsewhere? For some companies, swiping credit cards is a free 30-45 day loan. Their vendor/supplier charges the same amount whether they pay by cash or credit, so why not use a their own credit card?
FTFY

And thereby lies the red flag.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline sillypainter

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 2068
  • Total likes: 200
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2532 on: February 25, 2019, 11:08:02 AM »
Why is everyone always saying that if company needs to use credit cards it means they can't get loans or money elsewhere? For some companies, swiping credit cards is a free 30-45 day loan. Their vendor/supplier charges the same amount whether they pay by cash or credit, so why not use a credit card?
I'm obviously not talking about the companies that that are using them to swipe to themselves. That is 100% unsustainable and should raise lots of red flags. But to pay vendors direct? Why shouldn't the company get the extra time to pay for the goods and help with cash flow?
I'm NOT saying it should be done, but it's very different to companies swiping to themselves.

We are talking here of companies that swipe at their OWN place of busiiness with their own terminal, this is a RED flag immediately and you MUST stay away because they are paying mafia loan shark interest rates and if they still do it it means desperation. Swiping at a vendor is risky, but it isn't a right away red flag, that is normal if the business you lend to has a hard time getting credit.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67599
  • Total likes: 16912
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2533 on: February 25, 2019, 11:32:41 AM »
that is normal if the business you lend to has a hard time getting credit.
If they can't get credit from a bank, then why is it worth your risk to earn a measly 2%?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online aro123

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 142
  • Total likes: 27
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2534 on: February 25, 2019, 11:38:39 AM »
If they can't get credit from a bank, then why is it worth your risk to earn a measly 2%?
but no reason to assume buying groups can't get credit from a bank.  that is not why they need you

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67599
  • Total likes: 16912
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2535 on: February 25, 2019, 11:39:29 AM »
but no reason to assume buying groups can't get credit from a bank.  that is not why they need you
Can you stop assuming everything I say is talking about buying groups please.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67599
  • Total likes: 16912
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline sruly

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2011
  • Posts: 2156
  • Total likes: 70
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2537 on: February 25, 2019, 11:47:52 AM »
but no reason to assume buying groups can't get credit from a bank.  that is not why they need you
Buying group are a grey area and probably not as easy to get loans.
They do need you to bypass limits but just as well they need your cash flow.

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 8355
  • Total likes: 1110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2538 on: February 25, 2019, 11:59:08 AM »
Buying group are a grey area and probably not as easy to get loans.
They do need you to bypass limits but just as well they need your cash flow.
Not true, they have millions of dollars of funding from investors, they may run behind during busy times but they're primary purpose for using you is not for your cash flow.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline eliteflyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Posts: 1517
  • Total likes: 60
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2539 on: February 25, 2019, 12:05:47 PM »
Pretty compelling, but are you making the case that there are no situations where a company would legitimately need to secure funding somewhere other than the capital or loan markets?
No, just not on an unsecured, subordinated, unlawful and possibly unenforceable basis at about 2% on your credit card. That's equity with no upside or even minority-owner protections.
Why is everyone always saying that if company needs to use credit cards it means they can't get loans or money elsewhere? For some companies, swiping credit cards is a free 30-45 day loan. Their vendor/supplier charges the same amount whether they pay by cash or credit, so why not use a credit card?
Why shouldn't the company get the extra time to pay for the goods and help with cash flow?
Why is the company not using its own credit card? Because the credit card company is unwilling to increase an unsecured line of credit (or worse, provide a line of credit in the first place) to the company (even with the fees and interest rates that credit cards can charge. You really think you're better at underwriting than the credit card company?