Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 215436 times)

Offline TimT

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3075 on: March 05, 2019, 03:44:08 PM »
No, no
That is the misconception he's is referring to, people think you can dispute anything
Very true. The other day I watched someone call the bank to dispute a charge because the store refused to refund his card on something he purchased 2 months ago. He threatened he’ll dispute, the clerk said he has the receipt with his signature on it, he took his phone out & called the bank. I kid you not

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3076 on: March 05, 2019, 03:44:43 PM »
Did I miss something?

The difference between lending and investing.
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Offline whYME

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3077 on: March 05, 2019, 03:46:20 PM »
The difference between lending and investing.
Exactly.

Offline whYME

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3078 on: March 05, 2019, 03:49:23 PM »
I did just change the term to swipers
In that case it should probably be swipees?

Throughout this thread "swiper" has referred to the business/individual receiving the funds.

Offline zale

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3079 on: March 05, 2019, 03:50:44 PM »
Very true. The other day I watched someone call the bank to dispute a charge because the store refused to refund his card on something he purchased 2 months ago. He threatened he’ll dispute, the clerk said he has the receipt with his signature on it, he took his phone out & called the bank. I kid you not

I once lost a dispute with Pottery Barn over a $100 item purchased with an Amex card. I returned the item and got a confirmation that the item has been returned and that the money was refunded to my card, but it never got refunded. After I couldn't get anywhere with their customer service I chose to dispute. They then told Amex that they sent out a gift card for the return. (I never received that gift card). They showed Amex some transactional receipts etc. and Amex ruled in their favor and closed the case. I reopened the case and lost again. This was an eye opener to me as I rarely dispute transactions and I have always heard that "Amex sides with the customer".

I think that many times disputes work because the merchants don't fight back. Once they fight back the dynamic changes entirely.

Offline boruchmig

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3080 on: March 05, 2019, 03:52:55 PM »
Make mention of the idea, that just because the guy swiping your cc has a building or more, and he tells you that in worst case scenario he will sell the building to repay you, it doesn't mean he actually  will sell it , and if he does you wont be the one getting the money. Some guys were given such guarantees..
And not to give your cc, even to a friend that you trust to "know these things"

Offline Denverite

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3081 on: March 05, 2019, 03:56:00 PM »
Ok @whYME  and @Yehuda57  please tell me a real word to use for the people who allowed their cards to be swiped and I'll use it!  Lender, investor, victim all imply taking a side.  I used the term investor because I was referencing a Ponzi scheme comparison and that's what people with money in Ponzi schemes are called...geesh.

 I refuse to use swipee because now I can't get Dora the Explorer out of my head and my kids already traumatized me for several years going around the house saying "Swiper no Swipee!"  ;D

Offline ExGingi

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3082 on: March 05, 2019, 04:06:30 PM »
The need for financial literacy education.  (he will eat this up like crazy) This doesn't mean learning math, science or economics, but the basic concepts of budgeting, interest, loans, etc.

The investment misnomer - these were loans at best, most victims probably didn't even think they were doing that.

The halachic ramifications of disputing charges.

People don't have to be willfully trying to scam you, some probably have the best of intentions.

Add to all of the above the fact that people might run afoul of Ribbis issues. If the swiper pays a little late, and there's interest charged, you're probably not allowed to collect that from him. Go to a competent Halachic Authority for the Heter Iska (don't just download a form and fill the blanks, these are complex issues). I would hope that a competent Rov that would be consulted for a Heter Iska might warn of pitfalls.

Maybe point people to the common sense advice from R' Mendel Shafran.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Definitions

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3083 on: March 05, 2019, 04:14:35 PM »
Ok @whYME  and @Yehuda57  please tell me a real word to use for the people who allowed their cards to be swiped and I'll use it!  Lender, investor, victim all imply taking a side.  I used the term investor because I was referencing a Ponzi scheme comparison and that's what people with money in Ponzi schemes are called...geesh.

 I refuse to use swipee because now I can't get Dora the Explorer out of my head and my kids already traumatized me for several years going around the house saying "Swiper no Swipee!"  ;D
Cardholder?
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3084 on: March 05, 2019, 04:16:21 PM »
Add to all of the above the fact that people might run afoul of Ribbis issues. If the swiper pays a little late, and there's interest charged, you're probably not allowed to collect that from him. Go to a competent Halachic Authority for the Heter Iska (don't just download a form and fill the blanks, these are complex issues). I would hope that a competent Rov that would be consulted for a Heter Iska might warn of pitfalls.

Maybe point people to the common sense advice from R' Mendel Shafran.
I know there are people who hold that whoever is using the credit card is considered the "owner" or whatever so you wouldn't necessarily have ribis issues.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3085 on: March 05, 2019, 04:17:25 PM »
I don't understand this aversion to anything "worldly".
+1
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline ExGingi

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3086 on: March 05, 2019, 04:30:40 PM »
I know there are people who hold that whoever is using the credit card is considered the "owner" or whatever so you wouldn't necessarily have ribis issues.

Who are those people? Most likely either someone who is clueless about the law, or clueless about Halacha. But that's neither here nor there, the point is that people should get COMPETENT Halachic guidance prior to entering into these kinds of swiping arrangements. If the Halachic authority they approach is competent, they are likely to be dissuaded from entering into the arrangement altogether.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Denverite

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3087 on: March 05, 2019, 04:33:57 PM »
Cardholder?

It works, thanks! Both my recent posts have been modified using that term for people who gave their cards.

And goodness, if anyone is triggered by the term "cardholder" speak now, offer a better vocab word, or forever hold your peace.  ;)

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3088 on: March 05, 2019, 04:34:39 PM »
Who are those people? Most likely either someone who is clueless about the law, or clueless about Halacha. But that's neither here nor there, the point is that people should get COMPETENT Halachic guidance prior to entering into these kinds of swiping arrangements. If the Halachic authority they approach is competent, they are likely to be dissuaded from entering into the arrangement altogether.
I know of one very competent posek specifically who holds like that although I'm entirely sure of the details so it's possible that I'm missing information about what he holds and when it would apply. You're welcome to PM if you want the name of the rav, I'm not going to post it here.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3089 on: March 05, 2019, 04:40:36 PM »
It works, thanks! Both my recent posts have been modified using that term for people who gave their cards.

And goodness, if anyone is triggered by the term "cardholder" speak now, offer a better vocab word, or forever hold your peace.  ;)
I'll speak for myself, but it's not a matter of being triggered or attacking you over semantics. It's about fundamental misunderstandings which lead to the scams.
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[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)