Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 475185 times)

Offline boruchmig

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3080 on: March 05, 2019, 03:52:55 PM »
Make mention of the idea, that just because the guy swiping your cc has a building or more, and he tells you that in worst case scenario he will sell the building to repay you, it doesn't mean he actually  will sell it , and if he does you wont be the one getting the money. Some guys were given such guarantees..
And not to give your cc, even to a friend that you trust to "know these things"

Offline Denverite

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3081 on: March 05, 2019, 03:56:00 PM »
Ok @whYME  and @Yehuda57  please tell me a real word to use for the people who allowed their cards to be swiped and I'll use it!  Lender, investor, victim all imply taking a side.  I used the term investor because I was referencing a Ponzi scheme comparison and that's what people with money in Ponzi schemes are called...geesh.

 I refuse to use swipee because now I can't get Dora the Explorer out of my head and my kids already traumatized me for several years going around the house saying "Swiper no Swipee!"  ;D

Offline ExGingi

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3082 on: March 05, 2019, 04:06:30 PM »
The need for financial literacy education.  (he will eat this up like crazy) This doesn't mean learning math, science or economics, but the basic concepts of budgeting, interest, loans, etc.

The investment misnomer - these were loans at best, most victims probably didn't even think they were doing that.

The halachic ramifications of disputing charges.

People don't have to be willfully trying to scam you, some probably have the best of intentions.

Add to all of the above the fact that people might run afoul of Ribbis issues. If the swiper pays a little late, and there's interest charged, you're probably not allowed to collect that from him. Go to a competent Halachic Authority for the Heter Iska (don't just download a form and fill the blanks, these are complex issues). I would hope that a competent Rov that would be consulted for a Heter Iska might warn of pitfalls.

Maybe point people to the common sense advice from R' Mendel Shafran.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Definitions

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3083 on: March 05, 2019, 04:14:35 PM »
Ok @whYME  and @Yehuda57  please tell me a real word to use for the people who allowed their cards to be swiped and I'll use it!  Lender, investor, victim all imply taking a side.  I used the term investor because I was referencing a Ponzi scheme comparison and that's what people with money in Ponzi schemes are called...geesh.

 I refuse to use swipee because now I can't get Dora the Explorer out of my head and my kids already traumatized me for several years going around the house saying "Swiper no Swipee!"  ;D
Cardholder?

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3084 on: March 05, 2019, 04:16:21 PM »
Add to all of the above the fact that people might run afoul of Ribbis issues. If the swiper pays a little late, and there's interest charged, you're probably not allowed to collect that from him. Go to a competent Halachic Authority for the Heter Iska (don't just download a form and fill the blanks, these are complex issues). I would hope that a competent Rov that would be consulted for a Heter Iska might warn of pitfalls.

Maybe point people to the common sense advice from R' Mendel Shafran.
I know there are people who hold that whoever is using the credit card is considered the "owner" or whatever so you wouldn't necessarily have ribis issues.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3085 on: March 05, 2019, 04:17:25 PM »
I don't understand this aversion to anything "worldly".
+1
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline ExGingi

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3086 on: March 05, 2019, 04:30:40 PM »
I know there are people who hold that whoever is using the credit card is considered the "owner" or whatever so you wouldn't necessarily have ribis issues.

Who are those people? Most likely either someone who is clueless about the law, or clueless about Halacha. But that's neither here nor there, the point is that people should get COMPETENT Halachic guidance prior to entering into these kinds of swiping arrangements. If the Halachic authority they approach is competent, they are likely to be dissuaded from entering into the arrangement altogether.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Denverite

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3087 on: March 05, 2019, 04:33:57 PM »
Cardholder?

It works, thanks! Both my recent posts have been modified using that term for people who gave their cards.

And goodness, if anyone is triggered by the term "cardholder" speak now, offer a better vocab word, or forever hold your peace.  ;)

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3088 on: March 05, 2019, 04:34:39 PM »
Who are those people? Most likely either someone who is clueless about the law, or clueless about Halacha. But that's neither here nor there, the point is that people should get COMPETENT Halachic guidance prior to entering into these kinds of swiping arrangements. If the Halachic authority they approach is competent, they are likely to be dissuaded from entering into the arrangement altogether.
I know of one very competent posek specifically who holds like that although I'm entirely sure of the details so it's possible that I'm missing information about what he holds and when it would apply. You're welcome to PM if you want the name of the rav, I'm not going to post it here.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Online Yehuda57

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3089 on: March 05, 2019, 04:40:36 PM »
It works, thanks! Both my recent posts have been modified using that term for people who gave their cards.

And goodness, if anyone is triggered by the term "cardholder" speak now, offer a better vocab word, or forever hold your peace.  ;)
I'll speak for myself, but it's not a matter of being triggered or attacking you over semantics. It's about fundamental misunderstandings which lead to the scams.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3090 on: March 05, 2019, 04:51:14 PM »
I know of one very competent posek specifically who holds like that although I'm entirely sure of the details so it's possible that I'm missing information about what he holds and when it would apply. You're welcome to PM if you want the name of the rav, I'm not going to post it here.
PM sent. Though for the benefit of the public, why don't you go to said Posek and get the details and scenario, and then report back.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3091 on: March 05, 2019, 04:54:57 PM »


The question is if there is a downside to disputing and trying that method before going the bankruptcy/settlement route. What's the worst case scenario? If you lose the dispute, does that make you ineligible to settle?

There is another thing to consider: In a normal scenario, when a customer wins a dispute, the cc issuer will then debit the balance from the merchant's receiving bank account. What happens when the merchant's bank account is already overdrawn or closed? Correct me if I'm wrong, but presumably the cc issuer will absorb the loss and write it off. Why would they be willing to absorb the loss if they can pin the responsibility on the customer? If multiple customers from a single merchant come forward with claims of millions of dollars the issuer will most certainly not be willing to absorb that.

The processing bank will absorb the loss, not the CC issuer but same difference.
 They won't absorb such a large loss easily
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline zale

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3092 on: March 05, 2019, 05:01:51 PM »

The processing bank will absorb the loss, not the CC issuer but same difference.
 They won't absorb such a large loss easily

The cc issuer is not the processing bank?

If you get a card from Chase, Chase doesn’t process the payment?

Offline Denverite

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3093 on: March 05, 2019, 05:10:05 PM »
I'll speak for myself, but it's not a matter of being triggered or attacking you over semantics. It's about fundamental misunderstandings which lead to the scams.

Ok, fair enough.  Definitely some financially unsophisticated, or overly trusting people (or whatever people want to call them because I truly don't want to offend anyone) got scammed or in the least drawn into something they didn't understand and my heart breaks for them and their losses.  Everyone is hammering me over my assumptions or word choices (which is fine, I'm a big girl and can take it) but I wouldn't assume these arrangements generally fell into the scam category without more information (maybe after getting more information it does fall into the scam category but right now we don't have that information). 

Please anyone feel free to address my actual question regarding whether the average cardholder that you know or yourself (obviously each individual case is different) actually had a net loss, after accounting for both recent unpaid bills and the value of points they received the whole time they were allowing their cards to be swiped. 

Just like it's probably a mis-characterization to label these cardholders investors, if a majority (or plurality or whatever standard you set) of these cardholders actually net money out of a multi-year arrangement with these owners, even accounting for recent losses, (and I truly don't know what to call these arrangements but I'm sure plenty of courts will address it) it might be a mis-characterization to call whatever their arrangements were a scam.

Offline zh cohen

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3094 on: March 05, 2019, 05:15:36 PM »
Just you or another panel ?

I don't think he does panels. He records 1 on 1 interviews with several people on the same subject.

Online Zalc

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3095 on: March 05, 2019, 05:23:01 PM »
No idea. Didn't know last time it was a panel either.
I don't think he does panels. He records 1 on 1 interviews with several people on the same subject.
This.

Nearly all his shows are a string of 1 on 1 interviews, usually 20-40 minutes in length (program is usually 2 hours or more)
If he is recording you later, he will probably reference others he spoke to and get your reaction, and vice versa.

Link: https://castbox.fm/va/1348308

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3096 on: March 05, 2019, 05:32:09 PM »
I'm going to be interviewed by him tomorrow.
What topics should I bring up?
How to use and play the credit card game responsibly.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 05:50:31 PM by churnbabychurn »

Offline zh cohen

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3097 on: March 05, 2019, 07:09:09 PM »
I'm going to be interviewed by him tomorrow.
What topics should I bring up?

2 things to be aware of.

1- he has a hard time staying objective and listening when he has a strong opinion about something. Usually when someone he disagrees with is on the show they get steamrolled, although I have heard people push back against his lack of objectivity, and when called out he tries to correct for it.

I assume he will agree with you on this specific issue, especially regarding the need for better education, but if the conversation goes to price mistakes or other aspects of "the game" he might give you a hard time.

2 - he is a billionaire (with a B), who has mentioned several times on his show that he heard from banks that are reluctant to work with him because of the impression they get of frum yidden from the newspapers. He holds those frum yidden who end up in the headlines responsible for that.

Offline shapsam

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3098 on: March 05, 2019, 07:40:20 PM »
2 - he is a billionaire (with a B), who has mentioned several times on his show that he heard from banks that are reluctant to work with him because of the impression they get of frum yidden from the newspapers. He holds those frum yidden who end up in the headlines responsible for that.
So he blames frum people when (according to him) the banks are bigots because of (non)stories that the media deliberately hypes up? that's called Stockholm Syndrome.

Offline Yard sale

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3099 on: March 05, 2019, 07:50:21 PM »
2 things to be aware of.

1- he has a hard time staying objective and listening when he has a strong opinion about something. Usually when someone he disagrees with is on the show they get steamrolled, although I have heard people push back against his lack of objectivity, and when called out he tries to correct for it.

I assume he will agree with you on this specific issue, especially regarding the need for better education, but if the conversation goes to price mistakes or other aspects of "the game" he might give you a hard time.

2 - he is a billionaire (with a B), who has mentioned several times on his show that he heard from banks that are reluctant to work with him because of the impression they get of frum yidden from the newspapers. He holds those frum yidden who end up in the headlines responsible for that.

“who has mentioned several times on his show that he heard from banks that are reluctant to work with him because of the impression they get of frum yidden from the newspapers. He holds those frum yidden who end up in the headlines responsible for that.”


More likely due to the $7 Billion Extended Stay bankruptcy that a lot of lenders got burned on.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/chloesorvino/2016/03/23/how-real-estate-billionaire-david-lichtenstein-bounced-back-from-a-7-5-billion-hotel-bankruptcy/amp/

“While the fiasco surely turned off some lenders from Lightstone forever, the firm has been able to get additional financing through its four non-traded office REITs.”

Interestingly enough he maxed out his credit cards to procure capital to buy his very first property. When the Extended Stay deal went bust, he was able to legally get out of a $7 billion dollar bad deal without taking too much of a personal hit, so he can definitely identify with at least a part of what people are going through.

Interviewees have claimed that he edits and tilts things towards his preconceived viewpoint so go in with that expectation.....