Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1182644 times)

Offline chayal101

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3340 on: March 12, 2019, 04:12:09 PM »
Just came across this, and realized how we've been lacking in DDF בקיאות.
Oy!! Gevald!.. And here we thought someone is finally sharing an update on the situation...
Chaya L.

Offline chayal101

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3341 on: March 12, 2019, 05:04:53 PM »
Getting this thread back on topic here... I feel like I should explain my strong interest in this credit card swiping ordeal (normally I have no interest in the 'Just schmooze' section) ...
#1- I'm not a victim, but I could have very well been one. I have opened plenty of credit cards in the past, and I have allowed others to swipe for me... I've dealt with ppl that I've trusted, but it has become quite clear that we can never trust anyone... (this got me thinking, maybe when @dan posts an exciting credit card sign up offer, he can add the link to his 'don't swipe recklessly for others' to keep on reminding others that's not the way to go...
#2- I have recently started a job in the credit repair line, and even before the BIG story broke, I personally heard from victims of other smaller cases and I was completely shocked, then came the next big case (the one that AT is representing) followed by the most disturbing case yet... !! (And there are many more disturbing cases slowly unfolding...) I have personally heard from so many young victims who are so confused and hurt... (Hence my interest in this discussion, and as you can tell I am no expert, I may have posted some dumb comments from time to time trying to make sense of this, but you guys are used to that already :) ...)
#3- As a result I felt compelled to take action and initiated the awareness ad campaign which B'H turned out to be a success. Lots of magazines were very quick and willing to print the ad in their paper free of charge!! (Look out for more ads printed this week in your local paper...)
#4- I would like to address my DDF name, which some of you were trying to determine my gender, I would have thought the name Chaya would make it pretty obvious... To keep this page on topic, I'll comment about that on another thread...
Chaya L.

Offline Denverite

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3342 on: March 12, 2019, 07:18:33 PM »
Getting this thread back on topic here... I feel like I should explain my strong interest in this credit card swiping ordeal (normally I have no interest in the 'Just schmooze' section) ...
#1- I'm not a victim, but I could have very well been one. I have opened plenty of credit cards in the past, and I have allowed others to swipe for me... I've dealt with ppl that I've trusted, but it has become quite clear that we can never trust anyone... (this got me thinking, maybe when @Dan posts an exciting credit card sign up offer, he can add the link to his 'don't swipe recklessly for others' to keep on reminding others that's not the way to go...
#2- I have recently started a job in the credit repair line, and even before the BIG story broke, I personally heard from victims of other smaller cases and I was completely shocked, then came the next big case (the one that AT is representing) followed by the most disturbing case yet... !! (And there are many more disturbing cases slowly unfolding...) I have personally heard from so many young victims who are so confused and hurt... (Hence my interest in this discussion, and as you can tell I am no expert, I may have posted some dumb comments from time to time trying to make sense of this, but you guys are used to that already :) ...)
#3- As a result I felt compelled to take action and initiated the awareness ad campaign which B'H turned out to be a success. Lots of magazines were very quick and willing to print the ad in their paper free of charge!! (Look out for more ads printed this week in your local paper...)
#4- I would like to address my DDF name, which some of you were trying to determine my gender, I would have thought the name Chaya would make it pretty obvious... To keep this page on topic, I'll comment about that on another thread...

Thanks for that heartfelt post (and all the crazy work you put into the ads and actually getting them published).  I'm truly curious, you seem like such a nice person, did you let others swipe because you were maybe naive or felt that you were trying to help them or their business?  Were you excited about the extra points (or the money from selling them)?  As an outsider looking in (and a business owner), it's so hard for me to understand how people could have done this without understanding the risk and I really do want to hear your side.  A number of people on here kind of clearly weighed the risks, were making a killing selling points and rolled the dice (and even now seem like they wanna roll the dice to dispute to hopefully just get out of paying anything, even if it opens themselves up to criminal prosecution).  I personally don't consider them victims but more overly risky lenders.  It seems like you are coming from a different place and I would like to understand your perspective because I'm still trying to wrap my mind around not only this behavior but the huge scale of it.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 07:41:38 PM by Denverite »

Offline zale

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3343 on: March 12, 2019, 07:48:21 PM »
Thanks for that heartfelt post (and all the crazy work you put into the ads and actually getting them published).  I'm truly curious, you seem like such a nice person, did you let others swipe because you were maybe naive or felt that you were trying to help them or their business?  Were you excited about the extra points (or the money from selling them)?  As an outsider looking in (and a business owner), it's so hard for me to understand how people could have done this without understanding the risk and I really do want to hear your side.  A number of people on here kind of clearly weighed the risks, were making a killing selling points and rolled the dice (and even know seem like they wanna roll the dice to dispute to hopefully just get out of paying anything, even if it opens themselves up to criminal prosecution) and I don't consider them victims but more overly risky lenders.  It seems like you are coming from a different place and I would like to understand your perspective because I'm still trying to wrap my mind around not only this behavior but the huge scale of it.

I’m in touch with a few victims. They did not expect the risks. It came as a massive shock to them. The people I know are very savvy and intelligent which makes this all the more mind-boggling. I think that there is a certain denial when you can use the extra money and you really don’t want to think about the downside. You close your eyes, let them swipe your card and you sell the points. Then you rinse and repeat. It’s an extra $1500-$5000 a month depending on how much you swiped, and it’s money that can go to pay insane tuition costs, mortgages, rent etc.

I should also point out that these merchants have been around for many years and gave off the impression that they had a solid business with plenty of revolving cash. Nobody thought too deeply into it or asked too many questions.


Offline Yehuda25

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3344 on: March 12, 2019, 07:51:50 PM »
I’m in touch with a few victims. They did not expect the risks. It came as a massive shock to them. The people I know are very savvy and intelligent which makes this all the more mind-boggling. I think that there is a certain denial when you can use the extra money and you really don’t want to think about the downside. You close your eyes, let them swipe your card and you sell the points. Then you rinse and repeat. It’s an extra $1500-$5000 a month depending on how much you swiped, and it’s money that can go to pay insane tuition costs, mortgages, rent etc.

I should also point out that these merchants have been around for many years and gave off the impression that they had a solid business with plenty of revolving cash. Nobody thought too deeply into it or asked too many questions.
+1
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


― Aristotle

Offline zale

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3345 on: March 12, 2019, 08:14:39 PM »
I should point out that after speaking to a number of victims, it's absolutely clear to me that the merchants are criminals. They are רוצחים. I don't care how many times people who worked for them say that they had good intentions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. At the end, these people knowingly schemed and conspired to swipe millions of dollars from unsuspecting cardholders

I'm absolutely sickened by the damage this is doing. The financial toll is devastating, but that's only the beginning. There is a huge psychological toll this is taking on the victims. People are unsure what to do, where to turn to, what action to take and what will happen. Even good lawyers can only help you so much. You have parents of large families, you have kollel yungerleit, you have bochurim of shidduch age that all now face the prospect of bankruptcy.


Offline LoLo

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3346 on: March 12, 2019, 08:18:04 PM »
I should also point out that these merchants have been around for many years and gave off the impression that they had a solid business with plenty of revolving cash. Nobody thought too deeply into it or asked too many questions.
+1. In the same way that amex increases your charge card unsecured spending power based on your usage and payment history.

Most people have no clue what it costs to swipe cards, and what regular business loan fees/interest rates are.

Offline chayal101

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3347 on: March 12, 2019, 11:16:46 PM »
Thanks for that heartfelt post (and all the crazy work you put into the ads and actually getting them published).  I'm truly curious, you seem like such a nice person, did you let others swipe because you were maybe naive or felt that you were trying to help them or their business?  Were you excited about the extra points (or the money from selling them)?  ....
EASY CASH, NAIVETY, + BLIND TRUST....

GOOGLE'S DEFINITION OF NAIVETY:
na·ive·té
/ˌnäˌēvəˈtā,näˈēv(ə)ˌtā/Submit
noun
noun: naivety; noun: naïvety
lack of experience, wisdom, or judgment.
"the administration's naiveté and inexperience in foreign policy"
synonyms:   innocence, lack of sophistication, lack of experience, ingenuousness, guilelessness, lack of guile, unworldliness, childlikeness, trustfulness, simplicity, naturalness; More
innocence or unsophistication.
"they took advantage of his naiveté and deep pockets"
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Offline jose34

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3348 on: March 13, 2019, 02:37:30 PM »
Saw this hanging up around the Mir today.
Anyway know what this is all about.
Another scam or it legit?

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3349 on: March 13, 2019, 02:39:43 PM »
Saw this hanging up around the Mir today.
Anyway know what this is all about.
Another scam or it legit?
Doesn't mean it's a scam but it's probably a terrible investment
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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3350 on: March 13, 2019, 02:41:46 PM »
Doesn't mean it's a scam but it's probably a terrible investment
did you miss the part where it says guaranteed?!?!
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline jose34

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3351 on: March 13, 2019, 02:46:50 PM »
did you miss the part where it says guaranteed?!?!

Thats why I was confused.
Once it says "guaranteed" means it a scam right? Or its not an investment.

Offline gingyguy

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3352 on: March 13, 2019, 02:48:47 PM »
Thats why I was confused.
Once it says "guaranteed" means it a scam right? Or its not an investment.
how can you thing scam if its endorsed by the rabboni of the mir?
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline jose34

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3353 on: March 13, 2019, 02:51:23 PM »
how can you thing scam if its endorsed by the rabboni of the mir?

 ;D

Online Yehudaa

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3354 on: March 13, 2019, 02:52:18 PM »
Saw this hanging up around the Mir today.
Anyway know what this is all about.
Another scam or it legit?
Saw the sign too. I have a feeling I know who & what it is. Someone set up a meeting for me last week with a guy who has an investment that he offers to ppl and he sells it using all those terms. Not a swiping scam and much lower risk than a swiping scam but it sounds sketchy and I think there are alot of halachic questions about it (sounded like gezel to me, I then had a little halachic argument with the guy about that), which would make it interesting that it has approval from 'the rabbanim of the mir'. No use speculating too much; we can wait until Sunday.

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3355 on: March 13, 2019, 02:54:23 PM »
Saw the sign too. I have a feeling I know who & what it is. Someone set up a meeting for me last week with a guy who has an investment that he offers to ppl and he sells it using all those terms. Not a swiping scam and much lower risk than a swiping scam but it sounds sketchy and I think there are alot of halachic questions about it (sounded like gezel to me, I then had a little halachic argument with the guy about that), which would make it interesting that it has approval from 'the rabbanim of the mir'. No use speculating too much; we can wait until friday.
FTFY
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3356 on: March 13, 2019, 02:55:44 PM »
Saw the sign too. I have a feeling I know who & what it is. Someone set up a meeting for me last week with a guy who has an investment that he offers to ppl and he sells it using all those terms. Not a swiping scam and much lower risk than a swiping scam but it sounds sketchy and I think there are alot of halachic questions about it (sounded like gezel to me, I then had a little halachic argument with the guy about that), which would make it interesting that it has approval from 'the rabbanim of the mir'. No use speculating too much; we can wait until Sunday.

Someone should post R' Shafran's advice right next to these ads. Let people use their own judgment based on advice from a well-known and respected dayan vs whatever this offer is.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3357 on: March 13, 2019, 02:56:49 PM »
FTFY
No, I was right the first time.

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3358 on: March 13, 2019, 02:57:05 PM »
Someone should post R' Shafran's advice right next to these ads. Let people use their own judgment based on advice from a well-known and respected dayan vs whatever this offer is.
What's his advice?

Offline Dan

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3359 on: March 13, 2019, 03:00:19 PM »
The only risk-free investment out there is earning ~2.45% in a savings account with FDIC insurance. Anything else that's not FDIC insured is a lie.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.