Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1183589 times)

Offline Joeymc

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3960 on: October 18, 2020, 01:21:49 AM »
You've given me an idea. I'm curious if I can use PayPal Key (specify a new billing address) for this.
Let us know if that works, I thought about that.

Does PayPal key require a correct billing address?
120 characters? Hmm, I wonder what I could write with 64 characters. Boy, it's gonna be hard to use up 15 characters. W-

Online Yo ssi

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3961 on: October 18, 2020, 01:23:47 AM »
Does PayPal key require a correct billing address?
No
Or try Privacy
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Online Euclid

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PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3962 on: October 18, 2020, 01:24:39 AM »
Let us know if that works, I thought about that.

Does PayPal key require a correct billing address?
Will try next time they have something I want to buy ;)

Nope. You can give them an arbitrary billing address (as long as it exists).

Offline Joeymc

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3963 on: October 18, 2020, 01:26:31 AM »
Nope. You can give them an arbitrary billing address (as long as it exists).
Probably the same for phone number, they don't actually use it.
120 characters? Hmm, I wonder what I could write with 64 characters. Boy, it's gonna be hard to use up 15 characters. W-

Offline yuneeq

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3964 on: October 18, 2020, 09:48:11 AM »
conspiracy theories

I’ve heard about this from a few friends back in the day
Visibly Jewish

Offline yelped

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3965 on: October 19, 2020, 12:46:53 AM »
I’ve heard about this from a few friends back in the day
Yup. Very tough with BB if you get on their wrong side. Staples is worse, though.

Offline Danlover111

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3966 on: October 19, 2020, 02:27:54 PM »
Had accounts shutdown and GC balance taken away for shipping to DE
I don't understand this whole thing in the first place , doesn't amazon see millions of dollars worth of products going to DE every day? don't they think it may may be for BG? am I missing something?

Online Yo ssi

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3967 on: October 19, 2020, 03:09:49 PM »
I don't understand this whole thing in the first place , doesn't amazon see millions of dollars worth of products going to DE every day? don't they think it may may be for BG? am I missing something?
It seems it's only a term for their GCs
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Offline Mootkim

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3968 on: October 22, 2020, 06:15:40 PM »
Will try next time they have something I want to buy ;)

Nope. You can give them an arbitrary billing address (as long as it exists).
does zip need to match for ppk?

Online Euclid

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3969 on: October 22, 2020, 06:20:38 PM »
does zip need to match for ppk?
Nope. Address is completely arbitrary.

Offline Traveler718

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3970 on: November 06, 2020, 02:34:07 PM »
How do BG's work in terms of a kinyan and when it becomes a halachic problem to back out - when you register for a deal, when you submit your confirmed order, or not until you actually deliver the item and get paid?

Offline pointer

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3971 on: November 06, 2020, 02:39:31 PM »
How do BG's work in terms of a kinyan and when it becomes a halachic problem to back out - when you register for a deal, when you submit your confirmed order, or not until you actually deliver the item and get paid?
If the price goes up and you want to back out, the moment you fill out the form.
If the price goes down, there was never a kinyan to begin with.

Offline Traveler718

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3972 on: November 06, 2020, 02:42:31 PM »
Is that seriously how it works? If I sign up for one of their offers and buy it and fill out the form and then the price goes down, they can back out on me and leave the hassle of returning the merchandise because of no kinyan? If so, why shouldn't it work in reverse, that if the price goes up, I can do the same?

Offline Mootkim

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3973 on: November 06, 2020, 03:21:30 PM »
Is that seriously how it works? If I sign up for one of their offers and buy it and fill out the form and then the price goes down, they can back out on me and leave the hassle of returning the merchandise because of no kinyan? If so, why shouldn't it work in reverse, that if the price goes up, I can do the same?
Because they have the upper hand to say too bad we are not checking in your watches at this price anymore, if you want your credit cleared up after a month and not need to lay out all the money for the 40 or so watches that you bought and the cc bill being due, you need to return it.

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3974 on: November 06, 2020, 03:23:10 PM »
Is that seriously how it works? If I sign up for one of their offers and buy it and fill out the form and then the price goes down, they can back out on me and leave the hassle of returning the merchandise because of no kinyan? If so, why shouldn't it work in reverse, that if the price goes up, I can do the same?
Not necessarily all the groups with all the deals.
My favorite cause: cssy.org

Offline Traveler718

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3975 on: November 06, 2020, 03:43:13 PM »
Because they have the upper hand to say too bad we are not checking in your watches at this price anymore, if you want your credit cleared up after a month and not need to lay out all the money for the 40 or so watches that you bought and the cc bill being due, you need to return it.

I get that. So they have the upper hand and even if I follow all their instructions, if they're facing a big loss for whatever reason, they can back out of the deal and I have no recourse other than to return the merchandise.

But then why doesn't it go both ways? If I sign up for one of their deals and then later find out that someone else is offering a much bigger commission, why shouldn't I have the upper hand in this case if I don't care about my long-term relationship with the BG? Is there any halachic problem with me backing out and selling it for more (or offering them to match, which they likely won't) since it was never 100% a done deal? And if so, is there ever a point short of giving them the item or taking their money at which it would be a problem to back out?

Offline Traveler718

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3976 on: November 06, 2020, 03:45:12 PM »
Not necessarily all the groups with all the deals.

I'm sure each group has its own individual policy. But once the concept exists that registering for a deal or even submitting my order info isn't 100% binding on them and they can renege under certain circumstances, shouldn't I be entitled to the same right of backing out for my financial good (e.g. if I find a much higher commission elsewhere, or even if I just decide I want to hang on to the item for myself)?

Has anyone ever discussed these halachos with a posek who understands buying groups? I'm interested in doing so myself, but need to first understand how the BG's work in terms of when they give themselves the right to back out, and when it's considered truly binding.

Offline Mootkim

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3977 on: November 07, 2020, 06:04:15 PM »
I'm sure each group has its own individual policy. But once the concept exists that registering for a deal or even submitting my order info isn't 100% binding on them and they can renege under certain circumstances, shouldn't I be entitled to the same right of backing out for my financial good (e.g. if I find a much higher commission elsewhere, or even if I just decide I want to hang on to the item for myself)?

Has anyone ever discussed these halachos with a posek who understands buying groups? I'm interested in doing so myself, but need to first understand how the BG's work in terms of when they give themselves the right to back out, and when it's considered truly binding.
there was a whole write up in the beis din section of the ami when this happened last year with the palladium coin. The bottom line from the article was aylor. Imo if you committed to a bg that themselves have backed out on you personally, (not just hearing a story from someone else) I don't see why you need to be better than them.

Offline gozalim

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3978 on: November 07, 2020, 08:51:36 PM »
מי שפרע

Offline Traveler718

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3979 on: November 07, 2020, 09:27:05 PM »
מי שפרע

As I understand it from Choshen Mishpat 204, מי שפרע only applies in a case where someone actually accepted money for a transaction and then backed out since מעות אינן קונות. But with BG's, no money is ever fronted or exchanged in advance, so מי שפרע wouldn't seem to be applicable. At most there's a question of מחוסר אמנה, which there's a a big מחלוקת if it applies in a case where the price changed, with the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch saying it does, while the Rosh and Tur say it does not.

The Aruch HaShulchan adds that the Gra says the Yerushalmi supports the latter opinion, and suggests that in such a case it's only a מדת חסידות to keep one's word. That's what I found over Shabbos.

If anyone has any additional mareh mekomos or contemporary p'sakim they've seen or received (especially with regards to BG's), I'd be very appreciative.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 09:44:27 PM by Traveler718 »