PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others

[churnbabychurn]

Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.

Not true. See relevant discussion here: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24911.msg407377#msg407377

[Yungerman]

Not true. See relevant discussion here: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24911.msg407377#msg407377

You're bringing a page of forum discussion with hardly any sources to disprove the consensus of poskim who hold that using someone's credit card is defined as borrowing from them with all its halachic ramifications?!

[churnbabychurn]

You're bringing a page of forum discussion with hardly any sources to disprove the consensus of poskim who hold that using someone's credit card is defined as borrowing from them with all its halachic ramifications?!

On the other hand, you're bringing a "consensus" out of arguably thin air.

Read the discussion, it has a pretty thorough analysis of the technical differences between a CC and a check/dc in halacha.
You check the current "modern" sources. Look in seforim on hilchos ribis, kidushin, tzedaka, mishloach Monos etc. Let us know what you find!

(In a Beis din for sure your consensus wouldn't hold up. Its neged hasvara vehametzius imho)

[Yungerman]

On the other hand, you're bringing a "consensus" out of arguably thin air.

Read the discussion, it has a pretty thorough analysis of the technical differences between a CC and a check/dc in halacha.
You check the current "modern" sources. Look in seforim on hilchos ribis, kidushin, tzedaka, mishloach Monos etc. Let us know what you find!

(In a Beis din for sure your consensus wouldn't hold up. Its neged hasvara vehametzius imho)

By "modern" I obviously was referring to rabbonim moirei hoiro'o who wrote about the subject of credit cards since their relatively recent reception into society.  Regarding ribbis, the consensus of those seforim are indeed that only the account holder is borrowing directly from the card issuer, not one who's borrowing it from the account holder. In that case, halacha views it that the lender/account-holder borrows from bank and then subsequently gives the money to the borrower. If the borrower doesn't pay on time or only pays the minimum payment, thereby causing interest to accrue, he isn't even allowed to pay directly to the bank the interest.

Regarding bais din, most rabbonim sitting on one would pasken as above.

[Ergel]

On the other hand, you're bringing a "consensus" out of arguably thin air.

Read the discussion, it has a pretty thorough analysis of the technical differences between a CC and a check/dc in halacha.
You check the current "modern" sources. Look in seforim on hilchos ribis, kidushin, tzedaka, mishloach Monos etc. Let us know what you find!

(In a Beis din for sure your consensus wouldn't hold up. Its neged hasvara vehametzius imho)

Do you have a single posek who corroborates what you said in that thread?

[rots5]

By "modern" I obviously was referring to rabbonim moirei hoiro'o who wrote about the subject of credit cards since their relatively recent reception into society.  Regarding ribbis, the consensus of those seforim are indeed that only the account holder is borrowing directly from the card issuer, not one who's borrowing it from the account holder. In that case, halacha views it that the lender/account-holder borrows from bank and then subsequently gives the money to the borrower. If the borrower doesn't pay on time or only pays the minimum payment, thereby causing interest to accrue, he isn't even allowed to pay directly to the bank the interest.

Regarding bais din, most rabbonim sitting on one would pasken as above.

if im following a correctly, youngerman is stating that if someone lent another guy his cc and didnt pay it back then the lender has to pay the intrest (late payment fees) and not the borrower....

this is 100% true!

[churnbabychurn]

Do you have a single posek who corroborates what you said in that thread?

not of hand. I have to remember which seforim I saw at the time...i will bln post when i find. I can assure you this, there ain't no consensus either way.

The concept is simple, merchants have an agreement with visa and banks that they will get paid by them for an approved swipe.
There is a totally separate agreement where the CC company will bill you for amounts charged. Agreement A is not dependent on the fulfilment of agreement B.
This is at best an eved kenani situation between the consumer and the merchant.


Disclaimer:
I have no idea how this affects hilchos ribbis. I'm just pointing out the glaring differences mentioned by poskim in other contexts.

[dbel23]

There are 5 examples in section 2 of this page, though txtmax's example is not one of them.

i see... thanks anyway

[skyguy918]

not of hand. I have to remember which seforim I saw at the time...i will bln post when i find. I can assure you this, there ain't no consensus either way.

The concept is simple, merchants have an agreement with visa and banks that they will get paid by them for an approved swipe.
There is a totally separate agreement where the CC company will bill you for amounts charged. Agreement A is not dependent on the fulfilment of agreement B.
This is at best an eved kenani situation between the consumer and the merchant.


Disclaimer:
I have no idea how this affects hilchos ribbis. I'm just pointing out the glaring differences mentioned by poskim in other contexts.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? If anything, you're just breaking a cc transaction into more transactions, which reinforces the point that the 'swiper' is borrowing from you, not the cc company.

[churnbabychurn]

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? If anything, you're just breaking a cc transaction into more transactions, which reinforces the point that the 'swiper' is borrowing from you, not the cc company.

the point is that the swiper is receiving money from the CC company. Not from the owner of the credit card. He is merely incidental to the transaction.

[yhakak]

I would disagree, for the simple reason that if the owner of the card contested the charge and told the cc company they let someone else use their card, their funds would not be returned. Ergo, the owner of the card is taking a risk, which makes him a party to the transaction.

the point is that the swiper is receiving money from the CC company. Not from the owner of the credit card. He is merely incidental to the transaction.

[dans fan]

Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.

you are mixing up hilchos ribis (yoreh daiah) with choshen mispat, many say that the one who used the credidit card cannot pay the ribis that is a isur veheter so lechumra you may not pay ribis but choshen  mishpat is different. for ex. mr A uses mr B credit card without permission then the credit card holder didnt borrow from bank and re lend it, so its not because its your account that its a automatic borrow and relend. but more because you mean to borrow and re lend, and that can be debated when you mean to borrow for ex. in our case many would never do a cash advance and then lend the cash to these scammers so you may not mean to borrow and relend, there are other reasons olso , the main point is in choshen mishpat if its not 100% clear he can alwys say kim li its very hard to be motzi money from someone not looking to pay back

[yzj]

Interesting. There are THREE separate ads in the Lakewood publications promising to make you thousands of dollars if you haven't had an Amex business card in the last 12 months and promising that they will take care of getting you approved and doing all the spending. There was even a glossy poster on the BMG bulletin board. hundreds of cards that are under financial review from these guy and they just keep going at it. Unbelievable. Talk about painting a big red target on Lakewood.

[churnbabychurn]

Interesting. There are THREE separate ads in the Lakewood publications promising to make you thousands of dollars if you haven't had an Amex business card in the last 12 months and promising that they will take care of getting you approved and doing all the spending. There was even a glossy poster on the BMG bulletin board. hundreds of cards that are under financial review from these guy and they just keep going at it. Unbelievable. Talk about painting a big red target on Lakewood.

the full page "we can make your Shul 100k" ad is crazy.
 Imho someone's gonna get into real serious trouble .....this is abuse on a major scale.

[avremie]

I was once in Manhattan Friday afternoon many years ago doing my rounds and a guy came over to me with some story that his car is in a lot and he has no money to get in back and he needs to go somewhere for shabbos and much more.... I gave him some money then I found out he's doing this for a long time and preying on young unsuspecting bochrim he's still out there as far as last year.
I think it would be good if people write the nature of their story so people would realize how they are being fooled or manipulated

[avremie]

Interesting. There are THREE separate ads in the Lakewood publications promising to make you thousands of dollars if you haven't had an Amex business card in the last 12 months and promising that they will take care of getting you approved and doing all the spending. There was even a glossy poster on the BMG bulletin board. hundreds of cards that are under financial review from these guy and they just keep going at it. Unbelievable. Talk about painting a big red target on Lakewood.

so its not anti semitism when they go after a whole Jewish community

[Freddie]

the full page "we can make your Shul 100k" ad is crazy.
 Imho someone's gonna get into real serious trouble .....this is abuse on a major scale.

Someone explain to me, what's the kuntz? How do they make money? If they are giving the "100k" (I assume points) to the shul? Do they charge? I don't get how their scheme works. Or are they stam identity thieves?

I just want to understand the game they're playing.

Also, how the heck are they getting 100k MRs from any Amex bonus available today? I know of no such bonus. Not even close.

Please explain to me. This stuff is like my version of watching Law and Order.

[avremie]

Can someone post  copy of the ad for the non-lakewood Jews

[Joe4007]

Someone explain to me, what's the kuntz? How do they make money? If they are giving the "100k" (I assume points) to the shul? Do they charge? I don't get how their scheme works. Or are they stam identity thieves?

I just want to understand the game they're playing.

Also, how the heck are they getting 100k MRs from any Amex bonus available today? I know of no such bonus. Not even close.

Please explain to me. This stuff is like my version of watching Law and Order.

I'm not familiar with this particular scenario, but having the word SHUL in the ad brings me to believe that they ask for a lot of names to apply for.

Regarding the 100K, I assume they take a commission.

[shmuelb]

I was once in Manhattan Friday afternoon many years ago doing my rounds and a guy came over to me with some story that his car is in a lot and he has no money to get in back and he needs to go somewhere for shabbos and much more.... I gave him some money then I found out he's doing this for a long time and preying on young unsuspecting bochrim he's still out there as far as last year.
I think it would be good if people write the nature of their story so people would realize how they are being fooled or manipulated

First time I was in Geula a kid came over to me with story, wallet stolen, needs money for bus... I asked him if he has change of a hundred, he started to pull it out. I grabbed his hsirt and said "if I ever see you do such a thing again...".

I had got the idea from a Country Yossi article I once read. The crook hears money coming and loses his cool. Works in many parts of dealing...

The lesson for US is that the Yetzer Hara entices us with exciting stuff and we lose our equilibrium and clear thinking. השוחד עיני חכמים יעור ויסלף דברים של צדיקים