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Author Topic: Top Reasons To Go OTD  (Read 181665 times)

Online avromie7

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #260 on: March 10, 2015, 04:42:19 PM »
FTFY correctly?
-1 it makes no difference the point is that you are not actually doing anything to the fire you are cutting off the supply of fuel
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline ckmk47

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #261 on: March 10, 2015, 05:31:41 PM »
-1 it makes no difference the point is that you are not actually doing anything to the fire you are cutting off the supply of fuel
The way I understood it, that point is only when you have a pilot that still has a flame after you close the burner.  So when you close the burner flame, you're not supplying extra fuel to the fire (of the pilot).  But if you have no pilot, when you shut off the fuel to the burner, the fire is extinguished - and that is a problem.
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Offline grodnoking

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #262 on: March 10, 2015, 07:07:36 PM »
The way I understood it, that point is only when you have a pilot that still has a flame after you close the burner.  So when you close the burner flame, you're not supplying extra fuel to the fire (of the pilot).  But if you have no pilot, when you shut off the fuel to the burner, the fire is extinguished - and that is a problem.
Its based directly on a mishna. If u have a egg which is dripping oil on to a wick, on shabbos you can't take it off but on yom tov you can. Because normally you cant take fuel from a fire but on yom tov you can. So by turning off the gas your cutting off the fuel from below the fire, and therefore is like removing the egg. So if you have a burner which has an electronic starter you can unplug the oven and use the stove top all yt long by lightning the gas with a candle (that you have burning all yt) and turning it off whenever.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #263 on: March 10, 2015, 07:42:57 PM »
I believe this is based on the halacha that bentching requires a "kesser"
Weren't you there with me for the maaseh I mentioned? Is that what he said? I vaguely remember something about cos shel bracha being the mechayev too. Does that ring a bell?

Offline ckmk47

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #264 on: March 10, 2015, 07:51:41 PM »
Its based directly on a mishna. If u have a egg which is dripping oil on to a wick, on shabbos you can't take it off but on yom tov you can. Because normally you cant take fuel from a fire but on yom tov you can. So by turning off the gas your cutting off the fuel from below the fire, and therefore is like removing the egg. So if you have a burner which has an electronic starter you can unplug the oven and use the stove top all yt long by lightning the gas with a candle (that you have burning all yt) and turning it off whenever.
When you remove the egg, does the fire immediately go out? or is there some oil left to keep the wick lit at the time that you remove the egg?
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Offline Banillareloads

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #265 on: March 10, 2015, 09:00:03 PM »
Regarding the alleged netillasyadayimophobia, a non-jewish worker at a luncheonette recently asked me why the rabbis dont come out with a product like purell to make it less stressful :D

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #266 on: March 10, 2015, 09:06:15 PM »
Regarding the alleged netillasyadayimophobia, a non-jewish worker at a luncheonette recently asked me why the rabbis dont come out with a product like purell to make it less stressful :D
Reminds me of the joke with the eruv. When they were building one of the eruvin in NYC, they came to the mayor to get his help in securing the permits. They tried explaining to him exactly what it is and why it's necessary. He listened to the whole drasha with a puzzled expression, then asked, "I don't understand, why can't you just make it wireless?"

Offline grodnoking

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #267 on: March 10, 2015, 09:08:44 PM »
When you remove the egg, does the fire immediately go out? or is there some oil left to keep the wick lit at the time that you remove the egg?
Obviously theres some oil left, but also by the gas range your cutting it off below the flame so theres still gas left (although its a tiny amount, and the fire goes out a millisecond later - its still there).
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Offline thaber

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #268 on: March 10, 2015, 10:55:15 PM »
Gosh - I'm with coralsnake, this discussion is making me go OTD.
1) FTR - RMF is discussing lowering the flame, and in a nutshell holds that if you can turn it lower you can turn it off. But he isn't matir that in the teshuva, and that's the off the record part. No difference if there is a pilot or not. IF there is an electric pilot, then you very possibly will trigger it in the process of shutting off the oven, so you have an electricity problem.
2) the shemayisroel link that was presented as proof that you have to wear a hat and jacket for bentshing clearly said that *some say* to do so. Precisely - the Magen Avraham says to put on a hat (no jacket). The Aruch Hashulchan says from the Zohar to put on a beged elyon, and adds ולא ראינו ולא שמענו מנהג זה . It's clearly not clear cut one way or another.
 Furthermore, does everyone wear a hat and jacket for davening?
3) Mayim Achronim - Suffice it to say that the SA quotes not washing as alegitimite opinion, and the MB differs only because of kabbalistic reasons. Yekkes don't wash. Many Litvaks don't wash. Most communities women don't wash.
4) I drink my coffee black and can't stand it with milk or sugar. I've been known to eat cholent for breakfast. I would happily wash for bread on 3 meals a day, maybe because of 2 + 3 above


Offline grodnoking

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #269 on: March 11, 2015, 12:56:34 AM »
Gosh - I'm with coralsnake, this discussion is making me go OTD.
1) FTR - RMF is discussing lowering the flame, and in a nutshell holds that if you can turn it lower you can turn it off. But he isn't matir that in the teshuva, and that's the off the record part. No difference if there is a pilot or not. IF there is an electric pilot, then you very possibly will trigger it in the process of shutting off the oven, so you have an electricity problem.
2) the shemayisroel link that was presented as proof that you have to wear a hat and jacket for bentshing clearly said that *some say* to do so. Precisely - the Magen Avraham says to put on a hat (no jacket). The Aruch Hashulchan says from the Zohar to put on a beged elyon, and adds ולא ראינו ולא שמענו מנהג זה . It's clearly not clear cut one way or another.
 Furthermore, does everyone wear a hat and jacket for davening?
3) Mayim Achronim - Suffice it to say that the SA quotes not washing as alegitimite opinion, and the MB differs only because of kabbalistic reasons. Yekkes don't wash. Many Litvaks don't wash. Most communities women don't wash.
4) I drink my coffee black and can't stand it with milk or sugar. I've been known to eat cholent for breakfast. I would happily wash for bread on 3 meals a day, maybe because of 2 + 3 above
1)
2)
3)
4)
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Offline chaimmayer

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #270 on: March 11, 2015, 01:09:10 AM »
I believe this is based on the halacha that bentching requires a "kesser"
And the מקור for requiring a Kesser is?

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #271 on: March 11, 2015, 01:12:04 AM »
Threads that end up way OT

Offline zale

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #272 on: March 11, 2015, 01:24:01 AM »
ftfy.

It's pretty funny the probably #1 reason for youths going otd isn't listed here, and it's not abuse as a kid ftr.

Many people who go OTD definitely use that excuse, though I'm not entirely convinced that it's always true. Nobody is brought up in a perfect environment. Nobody grows up with perfect parents, teachers, counselors and friends. Everyone goes through some abuse growing up, someone is going to be mean to you, or bully you, or put you down during your childhood years.

Oddly, two classmates of mine, brilliant guys, went OTD because they had issues with their belief in G-d. They probably know more Talmud and Halacha than most people. Both of these guys maintain a strong connection with their families and friends.


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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #273 on: March 11, 2015, 09:27:00 AM »
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #274 on: March 11, 2015, 09:57:54 AM »
Many people who go OTD definitely use that excuse, though I'm not entirely convinced that it's always true. Nobody is brought up in a perfect environment. Nobody grows up with perfect parents, teachers, counselors and friends. Everyone goes through some abuse growing up, someone is going to be mean to you, or bully you, or put you down during your childhood years.

Oddly, two classmates of mine, brilliant guys, went OTD because they had issues with their belief in G-d. They probably know more Talmud and Halacha than most people. Both of these guys maintain a strong connection with their families and friends.


I'd say with some confidence that if it weren't for the easy way out, being lazy, and taivos they'd still be frum.

Lots of people say they are going off because they have hashkafic issues but I found more often than not something else is the real drive behind those hashkafic issues.
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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #275 on: March 11, 2015, 10:00:59 AM »

I'd say with some confidence that if it weren't for the easy way out, being lazy, and taivos they'd still be frum.

Lots of people say they are going off because they have hashkafic issues but I found more often than not something else is the real drive behind those hashkafic issues.

How do you explain those who follow Halacha but don't believe?

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #276 on: March 11, 2015, 10:04:33 AM »
How do you explain those who follow Halacha but don't believe?
Is that who we were talking about? Or you are asking a different question than what we are discussing above?

I think that's a different topic for a different thread. Feel free to start it.
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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #277 on: March 11, 2015, 10:22:15 AM »
Many people who go OTD definitely use that excuse, though I'm not entirely convinced that it's always true. Nobody is brought up in a perfect environment. Nobody grows up with perfect parents, teachers, counselors and friends. Everyone goes through some abuse growing up, someone is going to be mean to you, or bully you, or put you down during your childhood years.

There's a huge difference between an imperfect environment and abuse.
I can't help but believe the countless therapists and others working in this field that claim abuse is a very significant factor if not the most.

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #278 on: March 11, 2015, 11:44:24 AM »
There is no question that people who have severely negative emotional experience of any kind will find it easier to leave. Some get over it; some don't. But if somebody was exposed to really emotionally unhealthy stuff, it definitely presents a challenge to their staying in the fold. I believe that to some extent we ALL go through this at some point or even a few points.

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Re: Top Reasons To Go OTD
« Reply #279 on: March 11, 2015, 12:26:13 PM »
There is no question that people who have severely negative emotional experience of any kind will find it easier to leave. Some get over it; some don't. But if somebody was exposed to really emotionally unhealthy stuff, it definitely presents a challenge to their staying in the fold. I believe that to some extent we ALL go through this at some point or even a few points.
key words: "to some extent"
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