Married men wear a ring to the office?

[henche]

I know of 2 people who went to interviews at large law firms with Yarmulka's on and didn't get offers but went back to the same place 6 months later without Yarmulkas and got offers.   That doesn't necessarily prove anything but there is reason in some circles not to.

I considered going sans yarmulka to interviews but they say only do that if you're going to do that at work once you get the job.

Given the difference in difficulty between getting a 1L law firm job and a 2L law firm job, I'd say this proves nothing at all.

[shlaros228]

Reb yid, a business handshake is not a show of closeness whatsoever.  It's 100% the equivalent of just saying, "Hello, nice to meet you."

+1

[churnbabychurn]

Reb yid, a business handshake is not a show of closeness whatsoever.  It's 100% the equivalent of just saying, "Hello, nice to meet you."

"Hello, nice to meet you" is an act of respect and closeness. therefore the handshake representing this "Hello" is not permitted according to RMF.

You dont shake hands with strangers on the subway, you shake hand to convey a message of friendship, respect, trust, etc. All theses can meet the halachic test of "closeness"

[zale]

Reb yid, a business handshake is not a show of closeness whatsoever.  It's 100% the equivalent of just saying, "Hello, nice to meet you."

That looks very good on paper.

In practice, if a gorgeous woman was your client, there is no doubt that thoughts would be racing through your head, and there would be satisfaction in the handshake.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you need to cut the cr*p.

[shlaros228]

Then you say that you're not interested in someone who would come so cheaply.

Im going to assume this whole line of conversation is sarcastic.  bc its vile and vomit worthy if serious

[sky121]

People who shake hands all the time also don't think it's a big deal necessarily compared to those who only shake hands once in a while. I am def  aware when shaking hands with the opposite sex.

[shlaros228]

That looks very good on paper.

In practice, if a gorgeous woman was your client, there is no doubt that thoughts would be racing through your head, and there would be satisfaction in the handshake.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you need to cut the cr*p.

haha.  keep the mind out of the gutter.

[churnbabychurn]

+1

BTW no disrespect intended before, I would shake your hand, and apologize as an act of closeness...

[shlaros228]

People who shake hands all the time also don't think it's a big deal necessarily compared to those who only shake hands once in a while. I am def  aware when shaking hands with the opposite sex.

its prob true, but not a good argument bc that can be said about stealing.

point is, there is nothing wrong with shaking a woman's hand in business regardless of whether you do it once or every hour.

[shlaros228]

BTW no disrespect intended before, I would shake your hand, and apologize as an act of closeness...

i have a cold and your probably quite expensive so not interested

[Moes Tavern]

I know of 2 people who went to interviews at large law firms with Yarmulka's on and didn't get offers but went back to the same place 6 months later without Yarmulkas and got offers.   That doesn't necessarily prove anything but there is reason in some circles not to.

I considered going sans yarmulka to interviews but they say only do that if you're going to do that at work once you get the job.

When I have gone on interviews I have worn a yarmulka.

As my father says, How else are you gonna explain why you need to leave early on Fridays in the winter?

[zale]

haha.  keep the mind out of the gutter.

Joke's on you buddy. Are you gay by any chance?

[Moishel]

I want to ask you a very specific question here:

What would happen if you (politely) didn't shake hands? Would you get fired? Would the client not follow through with the transaction?

Some people might get offended, in my version of Judaism that's kind of a big deal.

From your statement, it appears that your self-heter to shake hands is coming from being image conscious, as you believe that they would see it as "awkward". Putting self-consciousness before Yiddishkeit goes against everything that Judaism stands for. Open a Shulchan Aruch and read the first 10 lines.

Perhaps you want to tell me everything Judaism stands for? I don't see where the first 10 lines in shulchan aruch apply here, of course there are rules, but those same rules have exceptions, that's where all the fun happens. 

You tell 'em, Count! R' Moshe Feinstein z"l said that handshakes were yaharog v'al ya'avor. Some people like RMF when it's time to eat M&M's but not when it's time to explain to some important business lady why you can't shake her hand.

RMF never said Yeherag Veal Yaavor, not regarding handshaking in a business setting. He just refrained from giving a blanket heter in fear of it being abused, but according to Rav Sternbuch he held that there's nothing wrong with a formal handshake.

That's not an accurate quote of all parties you claim said that.

I didn't "quote" them, but they all I mentioned, and many more, hold that formal handshakes are OK.

LA2NYC/Freddie/others – I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. I tried to mix in humor with some real questions. I understand your reasoning but don’t agree with some of it. An example would be the workplace. If anything handshaking should be forbidden there. How many affairs do you think start at the work place?

How many affairs started without the precursor of a handshake?

Cmiiw but even poskim who are matir because its not chibba, that is only in extenuating circumstances where due to the nature of the circumstance the chibba is removed.

Do all your rabbis hold you can shake your neighbors hand good Shabbos? Of course not! (I would imagine).

By these poskim, "extenuating circumstances" was when a person might get offended by having their hand stretched out mid air with no response from the other party. Look in the Tshuvos and see for yourself.

So don't poo poo this serious Issur of negia, only shake where absolutely necessary.

There is no issur of negiah! none! there's an issur of negiah shel chiba. Period. Do you take change from a female cashier in the grocery?

Its not derech chibba and the notion that it could lead to an affair if you shake a woman's hand in the office is absurd.  Having deep conversations is a much more likely way to lead to an affair to begin with.

+100

Your sheer ignorance and chutzpa is amazing. Since when are you qualified to decide what halacah calls chibba? If anything you are the one in the gutter! Chibba does not mean a sexual act. It means an act of friendship closeness or trust. At least that's what Reb moshe feinstein and many other contemporary poskim hold.

It has nothing to do with leading to an affair, the act itself is ossur, either mideoraysa or miderabonon.

Halacha doesn't say what's considered chiba, if you know of such halacha please enlighten me. חיבה means fondness, affection, not friendship. And please stop misquoting RMF. Thanks.

[shlaros228]

Joke's on you buddy. Are you gay by any chance?

ha.  id say no.  my wife could probably second that

[CountValentine]

This is one of the best threads ever. I am floored that this is over a handshake.

[LA2NYC]

"Hello, nice to meet you" is an act of respect and closeness. therefore the handshake representing this "Hello" is not permitted according to RMF.

You dont shake hands with strangers on the subway, you shake hand to convey a message of friendship, respect, trust, etc. All theses can meet the halachic test of "closeness"

Oh gosh, I'm not conveying anything when I shake their hand, not affection, closeness, respect, nada.  It's part and parcel in saying hello.  See below in my earlier quote:

From R' Gil Student at Hirhurim - http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2005/07/shaking-hands-with-women.html:

As someone who has been shaking women's hands for years, I simply cannot understand his reasoning. A quick handshake yields no pleasure, and is so quick that it cannot even warm a cold hand. It also indicates no closeness between the two parties and is the equivalent of saying "Hello." R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik is quoted as having permitted shaking a woman's hand when necessary, and I once went to the trouble of confirming this from people who asked him directly. R. Mordechai Willig recommends what he calls a "dead fish" handshake -- shaking with a limp hand.

Granted, all agree that someone who does feel pleasure from a handshake should refrain from doing so. But a simple handshake does not, normally, give any pleasure.

I once heard a rabbi, who had previously worked for the OU, speak on this issue. He said that he could not understand why many of his former colleagues would shake hands with women while he went to amazing lengths to avoid shaking hands with women on the few occasions in which it arose. Had he only bothered to ask his colleagues, some of whom can learn circles around him, he might have recognized that (they and) their rabbinic mentors permit this when necessary. (NOTE that this is not intended to imply an OU policy on the subject or that everyone at the OU shakes hands with women.)

[shlaros228]

This is one of the best threads ever. I am floored that this is over a handshake.

agreed but leads to a bigger point about ignorance, foolishness and gutters

[sky121]

its prob true, but not a good argument bc that can be said about stealing.

point is, there is nothing wrong with shaking a woman's hand in business regardless of whether you do it once or every hour.

Whether there is something wrong with it halachaically or not everyone asks and decides for themselves. Whether is can be a form of physical closeness I think that depends on attraction and if you are used to touching members of the opposite sex or not.  All I am saying is that if you do shake hands all day long I would imagine it would be less of a "closeness" or whatever you want to call it then for someone who doesn't normally.

[zale]

Some people might get offended, in my version of Judaism that's kind of a big deal.

Perhaps you want to tell me everything Judaism stands for? I don't see where the first 10 lines in shulchan aruch apply here, of course there are rules, but those same rules have exceptions, that's where all the fun happens. 

Contradicting statements, much?

First you state that you have "your version" of Judaism, then you tell me that I am preaching about what Judaism stands for, by simply telling you the first chapter of Shulchan Aruch and about the basis of Judaism?

There is no issur of negiah! none! there's an issur of negiah shel chiba. Period.

DDF is looking for a full-time Rav, would you like to take up the position? You seem to have vast knowledge of Halacha, and I love "your version" of Judaism.

Do you take change from a female cashier in the grocery?

Lol, really? You are comparing this to a handshake?

[CountValentine]

How many affairs started without the precursor of a handshake?

How many affairs started without the precursor of saying "HELLO"?