Married men wear a ring to the office?

[Centro]

I'm not sure how you've deduced from my questions about my work status.

In fact, I own a business and hand have dealt with this more than several times. My policy is to never shake a woman's hand, period. Some women take it gracefully, other's look puzzled, but never once did they turn me down. I never once had a woman tell me that she was "offended" by my religious commitments.

My point is this: not everything in Judaism is about "Issur vs. Heter". A lot of Judaism is Hashkafa and attitude. If you are a frum Jew, you should be PROUD of it and proud to show it. This is important not only for yourself, but for your children as well, as they will be very confused as to why you are shaking hands with women, despite your "Heter". Clearly, you are ashamed of your Judaic observance, you are ashamed of your Yarmulke and ashamed to be "different". Wake up and smell the coffee! The first rule in Shulchan Aruch is not to be ashamed of your Judaism.

Count Valentine can't understand why the hell you are compromising on this, and rightfully so!

+1M
Best post in this thread, very well written!

[henche]

This is one of the best threads ever. I am floored that this is over a handshake.

Its over a ring.

[Freddie]

How many affairs started without the precursor of saying "HELLO"?

The handshake is not off limits because of what it may lead to. It's off limits because of what it is unto itself.

Is nothing sexual except for one specific mechanical act? Everything short of that is just "leading up to" that act? Sounds like Bill Clinton logic to me.

Obviously sexual behavior is a spectrum. The question is only where you draw the line. Torah draws the line at physical contact.

[LA2NYC]

I'm not sure how you've deduced from my questions about my work status.

In fact, I own a business and hand have dealt with this more than several times. My policy is to never shake a woman's hand, period. Some women take it gracefully, other's look puzzled, but never once did they turn me down. I never once had a woman tell me that she was "offended" by my religious commitments.

My point is this: not everything in Judaism is about "Issur vs. Heter". A lot of Judaism is Hashkafa and attitude. If you are a frum Jew, you should be PROUD of it and proud to show it. This is important not only for yourself, but for your children as well, as they will be very confused as to why you are shaking hands with women, despite your "Heter". Clearly, you are ashamed of your Judaic observance, you are ashamed of your Yarmulke and ashamed to be "different". Wake up and smell the coffee! The first rule in Shulchan Aruch is not to be ashamed of your Judaism.

You've proven my point about work status.  You're not in the same business world.  We've all been able to have a respectable discourse without denigrating each other.  So I also appreciate you telling me that I'm ashamed of my Judaic observance and of my yarmulke.   Excellent - I'm sure that's what HKBH wants.  Can't believe you just said that right after "A lot of Judaism is Hashkafa and attitude."  Amazing.

Additionally, my team sees me order the diet coke at the non-kosher restaurant or the plastic wrap & cardboard concoction when everyone else is enjoying a steak .  They see that I'm serious about rushing out of the office on a Fri, regardless of any big meeting going on.  They know I leave for 15 min "prayers" every day, and work whole weekends for missing any Fri night and time they'd work Saturday.  But hey, I guess I'm still ashamed of my Judaic observance.

In practice, if a gorgeous woman was your client, there is no doubt that thoughts would be racing through your head, and there would be satisfaction in the handshake.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you need to cut the cr*p.

BH I'm happily married and don't walk around gawking at other women.  I'm also mature enough to realize there's a difference between "re'eya" and seeing a women vs "histaklus" and thinking about her.  According to your logic, there would be an issues walking around anywhere NYC in the summer.

[CountValentine]

Torah draws the line at physical contact.

Then why the debate going on?

[Achas Veachas]

Then why the debate going on?

That's what some some people here are trying to figure out...

[Freddie]

Then why the debate going on?

CV, my friend, if this really amuses you, I can list any number of issues that are fairly "black-and-white" but will elicit all types of debate even from halacha-observing Jews.

Ask them if they eat M&M's and watch the fireworks.

[Achas Veachas]

CV, my friend, if this really amuses you, I can list any number of issues that are fairly "black-and-white" but will elicit all types of debate even from halacha-observing Jews.

Ask them if they eat M&M's and watch the fireworks.

Back when I was hiking in Nepal we spent many a long afternoon in our mess tent hotly debating, our tour guide kept asking us if all Jews argued this much

[Aaaron]

Everyone here is so quick to judge each other.  People forget that halacha isn't black and white; it's grey.  Whatever your LOR poskins for you becomes halacha for you.  Just because your Rabbi held differently for your situation doesn't make someone else right, wrong, less observant, etc. 

Get over yourselves.

Disclaimer:  I wear a ring (although I recently lost it and haven't rushed to get a replacement), I shake hands, I didn't wear a Yarmulke at my old job, but I do now that I work for myself.

[zale]

You've proven my point about work status.  You're not in the same business world.  We've all been able to have a respectable discourse without denigrating each other.  So I also appreciate you telling me that I'm ashamed of my Judaic observance and of my yarmulke.   Excellent - I'm sure that's what HKBH wants.  Can't believe you just said that right after "A lot of Judaism is Hashkafa and attitude."  Amazing.

I am not here to denigrate you.

I asked you a very specific question, if you would be fired or lose your client for not shaking hands. You did not answer that question. My take on that is that you would not lose the client or your job, but rather it would be "awkward".

In other words, you are ashamed of this fact that frum Jews don't shake hands, unless you have another way of explaining this.

Additionally, my team sees me order the diet coke at the non-kosher restaurant or the plastic wrap & cardboard concoction when everyone else is enjoying a steak .  They see that I'm serious about rushing out of the office on a Fri, regardless of any big meeting going on.  They know I leave for 15 min "prayers" every day, and work whole weekends for missing any Fri night and time they'd work Saturday.  But hey, I guess I'm still ashamed of my Judaic observance.

Your observance in certain issues does not indicate a lack of shame in other issues. Most Jews are not ashamed of observing Shabbos, so what? Most Jews are not ashamed of keeping kosher, so what? Niddah on the other hand...

Besides, you have made it quite clear that on THIS issue you are ashamed, so why bring in your Shabbos, kosher and prayer observance?

BH I'm happily married and don't walk around gawking at other women.  I'm also mature enough to realize there's a difference between "re'eya" and seeing a women vs "histaklus" and thinking about her.  According to your logic, there would be an issues walking around anywhere NYC in the summer.

I love the way men say that they don't look at other women because they are "happily married". Since when is being happily married a deterrent for looking at other pretty women? Do you know how many "happily married" men and women have affairs?

When have I ever said that there is an issue of "re'eya"? My point is that seeing a pretty woman WILL (or at least SHOULD) by nature make you "want" to look. You will then make a conscious decision of whether it's appropriate to "gaze" or not, and hopefully your decision will be that it is not.

Last but not least, not everything in Jewish observance needs a logical reason. Does it makes "sense" that a Frum gynecologist won't shake his patient's hand?

[Moishel]

Contradicting statements, much?

First you state that you have "your version" of Judaism, then you tell me that I am preaching about what Judaism stands for, by simply telling you the first chapter of Shulchan Aruch and about the basis of Judaism?

I hope you can sleep with these "contradicting statements", I would not want you to loose sleep over it, if there's anything I can do to help please let me know.

DDF is looking for a full-time Rav, would you like to take up the position? You seem to have vast knowledge of Halacha, and I love "your version" of Judaism.

I don't think you can afford me...  But thanks for the compliment.

Regarding version, let me bring you the poskims version, and you decide for yourself.
The Ramba"m says as follows:
כל הבא על ערוה מן העריות דרך אברים או שחבק ונשק דרך תאוה ונהנה בקרוב בשר הרי זה לוקה מן התורה

The Mechaber in אבן העזר סימן כ' says:
הבא על אחת מן העריות דרך איברים או שחבק ונשק ונהנה בקירוב בשר הרי זה לוקה וחשוד על העריות.

Now there isn't much discussion regarding handshakes in shulchan aruch, I guess the shulchan aruch trusted every person to know what's considered נהנה בקירוב בשר and what not.

Igros Moshe says as follows:
– וכל איסור נגיעה בעריות הוא אף להרמב"ם שסובר שהוא בלאו דלא תקרבו דאורייתא דוקא דרך תאוה כמפורש בדבריו ריש פרק כא מאיסורי ביאה ומשמע שבלא דרך תאוה ליכא איסור מדרבנן שלא הזכיר זה וכו' ומוכרח זה שם (מהש"ך) גופיה דהרי כתב שם שהמנהג פשוט שרופאים ישראלים ממשמשים הדופק של אשה אפילו א"א או נכרית ואם היה איסור קריבה אף בלא דרך תאוה אף רק מדרבנן היה איסור להם שלא במקום סכנה...

שו"ת נשמת חיים:
ואשר שאל על דבר נתינת ידו לרשעים או לנכרית...ולתת יד לאשה לשון הש"ס הוא ברכות סא. המרצה מעות לאשה מידו לידה כדי להסתכל בה, מבואר דאם אינו מכוין לשום דבר וכש"כ שאינו עושה כדי להסתכל בה כמו מעלתו שכל מעשיו לשם שמים אין איסור בזה לרצות מעות מידו לידה. ודאי אם יוכל להזהר בזה מה טוב אבל אם אי אפשר לו להנצל מזה כגון אם הנכרית הקדימה והושיט לו את ידה ואין דעתו לשום הרהור ח"ו אין להחמיר בזה ודרכיה דרכי נועם ואהבת את ה' אלקיך אמרו חכמים יומא פו. שיהא שם שמים מתאהב על ידך ולא יאמרו על יראה ה' שהם משוגעים ואינם בעלי דרך ארץ

Starting to see which "version" of Judaism I'm talking about? The one that cares about דרכיה דרכי נועם, being an אור לעמים, שיהא שם שמים מתאהב על ידך.

:העזר מקדש
 נראה פשוט דרק חיבת ביאה הוא האיסור והיינו שבדעתו אז להתקרב אליה לביאה או שמצפה לאחר כך ביום ההוא לבוא עליה רק שלפי שעה יש לו איזה מניעה משא"כ היכא שהוא בהיסח הדעת מבוא עליה מאיזה טעם שהוא אין בזה חשש איסור תורה

There is no issur of negiah! none! there's an issur of negiah shel chiba. Period. Do you take change from a female cashier in the grocery?

Lol, really? You are comparing this to a handshake?

You said any negiah is prohibited, no?

[Centro]

You said any negiah is prohibited, no?

No need to come in direct contact when taking change. 

[LA2NYC]

I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but +100 on Moisel's previous post.

I am not here to denigrate you.

I asked you a very specific question, if you would be fired or lose your client for not shaking hands. You did not answer that question. My take on that is that you would not lose the client or your job, but rather it would be "awkward".

In other words, you are ashamed of this fact that frum Jews don't shake hands, unless you have another way of explaining this.

Still denigrating, but that's ok.  And I'm not ashamed of frum practice - I've had to explain much more odd aspects of yiddishkeit.  You see it as being meikel in arayos, but I'm being machmir in kiddush Hashem, kavod ha'brios, and malbim pnei chaveiro b'rabbim.  If I shake the hands of three men and skip the woman, that's not embarrassing? 

I love the way men say that they don't look at other women because they are "happily married". Since when is being happily married a deterrent for looking at other pretty women? Do you know how many "happily married" men and women have affairs?

If you have a strong enough marriage, you could never even fathom an affair.

[churnbabychurn]

I hope you can sleep with these "contradicting statements", I would not want you to loose sleep over it, if there's anything I can do to help please let me know.
I don't think you can afford me...  But thanks for the compliment.

Regarding version, let me bring you the poskims version, and you decide for yourself.
The Ramba"m says as follows:
כל הבא על ערוה מן העריות דרך אברים או שחבק ונשק דרך תאוה ונהנה בקרוב בשר הרי זה לוקה מן התורה

The Mechaber in אבן העזר סימן כ' says:
הבא על אחת מן העריות דרך איברים או שחבק ונשק ונהנה בקירוב בשר הרי זה לוקה וחשוד על העריות.

Now there isn't much discussion regarding handshakes in shulchan aruch, I guess the shulchan aruch trusted every person to know what's considered נהנה בקירוב בשר and what not.

Igros Moshe says as follows:
– וכל איסור נגיעה בעריות הוא אף להרמב"ם שסובר שהוא בלאו דלא תקרבו דאורייתא דוקא דרך תאוה כמפורש בדבריו ריש פרק כא מאיסורי ביאה ומשמע שבלא דרך תאוה ליכא איסור מדרבנן שלא הזכיר זה וכו' ומוכרח זה שם (מהש"ך) גופיה דהרי כתב שם שהמנהג פשוט שרופאים ישראלים ממשמשים הדופק של אשה אפילו א"א או נכרית ואם היה איסור קריבה אף בלא דרך תאוה אף רק מדרבנן היה איסור להם שלא במקום סכנה...

שו"ת נשמת חיים:
ואשר שאל על דבר נתינת ידו לרשעים או לנכרית...ולתת יד לאשה לשון הש"ס הוא ברכות סא. המרצה מעות לאשה מידו לידה כדי להסתכל בה, מבואר דאם אינו מכוין לשום דבר וכש"כ שאינו עושה כדי להסתכל בה כמו מעלתו שכל מעשיו לשם שמים אין איסור בזה לרצות מעות מידו לידה. ודאי אם יוכל להזהר בזה מה טוב אבל אם אי אפשר לו להנצל מזה כגון אם הנכרית הקדימה והושיט לו את ידה ואין דעתו לשום הרהור ח"ו אין להחמיר בזה ודרכיה דרכי נועם ואהבת את ה' אלקיך אמרו חכמים יומא פו. שיהא שם שמים מתאהב על ידך ולא יאמרו על יראה ה' שהם משוגעים ואינם בעלי דרך ארץ

Starting to see which "version" of Judaism I'm talking about? The one that cares about דרכיה דרכי נועם, being an אור לעמים, שיהא שם שמים מתאהב על ידך.

:העזר מקדש
 נראה פשוט דרק חיבת ביאה הוא האיסור והיינו שבדעתו אז להתקרב אליה לביאה או שמצפה לאחר כך ביום ההוא לבוא עליה רק שלפי שעה יש לו איזה מניעה משא"כ היכא שהוא בהיסח הדעת מבוא עליה מאיזה טעם שהוא אין בזה חשש איסור תורה

You said any negiah is prohibited, no?

If you're quoting RMF its disingenuous not to quote the following on the topic:

There are three sources in the Igros Moshe

1) EH I #56 page 144

"Concerning that which you saw people being lenient even those who are
yirei shamayim - to offer their hand to a woman when she stuck her hand
out. Perhaps they reasoned that this is not derech chibah and taavah -
but l'maaseh this is difficult to rely on."

2) OH I 113 page 177

"To offer one's hand to a woman in the manner of those greeting others
upon meeting. It is pashut that it is prohibited even for an unmarried
woman since they are niddah and surely it is prohibited for a married
woman".

3) EH IV 32.9 page 76

"To offer one's hand to a woman in the manner of those greeting others
upon meeting. It is definitely pashut that it is prohibited as I have
written OH I 113. That is because one needs to be concerned for the issue
of derech chibah and taavah. But I wrote in EH I #56...that one is to
dan l'kaf zechus those who are relying that it is not derech chibah and
taavah to shake hands. But there I wrote that l'maashe it is difficult
to rely on this. Furthermore I don't see any inconsistency at all with
that which I permitted a person to travel on a bus because there -
there is basically no issue of chibah."

[churnbabychurn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah#cite_note-26

[LA2NYC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah#cite_note-26

Wikipedia - Yavo ha'shlishi v'yachrea beineihem .

CV, gotta get you to a yeshiva so you chop all the jokes!

[Ches]

According to your logic, there would be an issues walking around anywhere NYC in the summer.

Did you ever hear of this halucha: איכא דרכא אחריתא רשע הוא

[Moishel]

No need to come in direct contact when taking change.

So you're basically saying that if for any reason it would be impossible for you to get the change without the hands coming in contact with each other it would be assur. I hear ya, source please.

BTW, in halacha, giving over an object to someone is considered a form of נגיעה, hence the issur on giving over things to your spouse at certain times.

[LA2NYC]

Did you ever hear of this halucha: איכא דרכא אחריתא רשע הוא

Some people don't have a way other than the subway...

[churnbabychurn]

BTW, in halacha, giving over an object to someone is considered a form of נגיעה, hence the issur on giving over things to your spouse at certain times.

Nope, thats because it might lead to negia (according to most)