Married men wear a ring to the office?

[aygart]

I usually say "I don't touch what I can't afford." Goes over real well 

Sounds more suggestive than the avoided handshake.

[churnbabychurn]

you sure rmf said that.  I know the steipler held that way but Iirc Reb Moshe was not as strict.

The local shaliach in town told me once that he refuses to invite a certain well traveled chabad speaker because he shakes women's hands.  He told me if someone has a kula that's ok but in chabad we don't allow it and I "have to offend women every single day because of this".  It upsets him too much that the presents himself as a Lubavitcher but then shakes.

The chazon ish famously ruled that handshakes are yehareg veal yaavor.

While R moshe does asser repeatedly in igros because he held that a handshake by definition is to show closeness and chibba. There are reports that he was matir in extenuating circumstances where there was no possibility of chibba because it was forced.

[mod]

Cmiiw but even poskim who are matir because its not chibba, that is only in extenuating circumstances where due to the nature of the circumstance the chibba is removed.

+1
Not all handshakes are created equal nor are the circumstances surrounding them.

[CountValentine]

I usually say "I don't touch what I can't afford." Goes over real well 
 

When she responds "You might be surprised what you can afford" then what?

[shlaros228]

the entire hand shaking thing is one huge tangent.

Ive been working in the banking world for a bunch of years now, IMHO here is the deal:

Full disclosure - i wear no yarmulke or ring to work, nor do i have a beard.

Ring: I think the place this is most impactful is when the team goes out for drinks.  things could get a bit out of control and the key is to make an early exit.  Using marriage as an early exit excuse is a good way to go.

Hand-Shaking: point blank, everyone should get their mind out of the gutter and shake the hand like it was a man's.  Its not derech chibba and the notion that it could lead to an affair if you shake a woman's hand in the office is absurd.  Having deep conversations is a much more likely way to lead to an affair to begin with.

We do enough weird stuff and make life difficult for our non-ortho co-workers, adding to that by refusing to shake hands, whether by going into a long winded explanation to reflect how its not offensive or making some "oh, im neurotic about touching people" or "I have a cold" BS makes you look even weirder.

I can't tell you how many times Ive been downright embarrassed by the ignorance and sheer idiocy of what some frum ppl.  Of course everyone does dumb and ignorant things, but if everyone knows you are the Jew, its not a good look. 

End of rant

[CountValentine]

End of rant

Don't stop now you are on a roll. Almost forgot the +1.

[cozmohoot]

the entire hand shaking thing is one huge tangent.

Ive been working in the banking world for a bunch of years now, IMHO here is the deal:

Full disclosure - i wear no yarmulke or ring to work, nor do i have a beard.

Ring: I think the place this is most impactful is when the team goes out for drinks.  things could get a bit out of control and the key is to make an early exit.  Using marriage as an early exit excuse is a good way to go.

Hand-Shaking: point blank, everyone should get their mind out of the gutter and shake the hand like it was a man's.  Its not derech chibba and the notion that it could lead to an affair if you shake a woman's hand in the office is absurd.  Having deep conversations is a much more likely way to lead to an affair to begin with.

We do enough weird stuff and make life difficult for our non-ortho co-workers, adding to that by refusing to shake hands, whether by going into a long winded explanation to reflect how its not offensive or making some "oh, im neurotic about touching people" or "I have a cold" BS makes you look even weirder.

I can't tell you how many times Ive been downright embarrassed by the ignorance and sheer idiocy of what some frum ppl.  Of course everyone does dumb and ignorant things, but if everyone knows you are the Jew, its not a good look. 

End of rant

in this day and age why no yarmulke?

[shlaros228]

in this day and age why no yarmulke?

Fair question, was told by ppl i most respect that in my field, where i meet alot of new clients from various countries who often have no idea what a Jew is, its better to be judged entirely on your work and not on your jew cap.

but, i definitely agree that in NYC it is not a big issue anymore.

In the company I worked for until recently there were dozens of frum guys and i would say it was about 50/50 yarmulke or not.

in my new company, there are 2 of us and neither wear one

[Achas Veachas]

Funny, I never knew so many DDFers had real jobs

[MarkS]

in this day and age why no yarmulke?

I know of 2 people who went to interviews at large law firms with Yarmulka's on and didn't get offers but went back to the same place 6 months later without Yarmulkas and got offers.   That doesn't necessarily prove anything but there is reason in some circles not to.

I considered going sans yarmulka to interviews but they say only do that if you're going to do that at work once you get the job.

[churnbabychurn]

the entire hand shaking thing is one huge tangent.

Hand-Shaking: point blank, everyone should get their mind out of the gutter and shake the hand like it was a man's.  Its not derech chibba and the notion that it could lead to an affair if you shake a woman's hand in the office is absurd.  Having deep conversations is a much more likely way to lead to an affair to begin with.

We do enough weird stuff and make life difficult for our non-ortho co-workers, adding to that by refusing to shake hands, whether by going into a long winded explanation to reflect how its not offensive or making some "oh, im neurotic about touching people" or "I have a cold" BS makes you look even weirder.

I can't tell you how many times Ive been downright embarrassed by the ignorance and sheer idiocy of what some frum ppl.  Of course everyone does dumb and ignorant things, but if everyone knows you are the Jew, its not a good look. 

End of rant

Your sheer ignorance and chutzpa is amazing. Since when are you qualified to decide what halacah calls chibba? If anything you are the one in the gutter! Chibba does not mean a sexual act. It means an act of friendship closeness or trust. At least that's what Reb moshe feinstein and many other contemporary poskim hold.

It has nothing to do with leading to an affair, the act itself is ossur, either mideoraysa or miderabonon.

[LA2NYC]

in this day and age why no yarmulke?

I know if 2 people who went to interviews at large law firms with Yarmulka's on and didn't get offers but went back to the same place 6 months later without Yarmulkas and got offers.   That doesn't necessarily prove anything but there is reason in some circles not to.

I considered going sans yarmulka to interviews but they say only do that if you're going to do that at work once you get the job.

My first summer in the biz world at a firm was told by the frum partner better not to where one.  It was a terrible experience as anytime I'd eat/drink I'd put it on and I felt weird without it but can very much understand those who go without it.

Re: yarmulkes to interviews - heard that as well.  At the end of the day, you hate saying this as jobs aren't a dime a dozen, but if someone's not going to hire you b/c of the yarmulke, then you don't really want to work for them as they'll give you more trouble than it's worth.

[shlaros228]

Your sheer ignorance and chutzpa is amazing. Since when are you qualified to decide what halacah calls chibba? If anything you are the one in the gutter! Chibba does not mean a sexual act. It means an act of friendship closeness or trust. At least that's what Reb moshe feinstein and many other contemporary poskim hold.

i dont think im ignorant at all - chutzpa, maybe.

I have no idea what you mean by trust, but a handshake in business is nether a matter of friendship nor closeness.  It is not endearing nor loving, it is a matter of biz protocol.

if you think shaking a woman's hand at work is chibba, thats kind of creepy to me. 

[shlaros228]

Re: yarmulkes to interviews - heard that as well.  At the end of the day, you hate saying this as jobs aren't a dime a dozen, but if someone's not going to hire you b/c of the yarmulke, then you don't really want to work for them as they'll give you more trouble than it's worth.

i completely agree.  the only reason i dont is client related.

[LA2NYC]

From R' Gil Student at Hirhurim - http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2005/07/shaking-hands-with-women.html:

II. Shaking and Enjoying

Is there sufficient pleasure in shaking a woman's hand to render it prohibited, even according to the Shakh? R. Moshe Feinstein repeatedly (Iggeros Moshe, Orah Hayim vol. 1 no. 113; Even Ha-Ezer vol. 1 no. 56) ruled that a man enjoys shaking a woman's hand and it is therefore prohibited.

As someone who has been shaking women's hands for years, I simply cannot understand his reasoning. A quick handshake yields no pleasure, and is so quick that it cannot even warm a cold hand. It also indicates no closeness between the two parties and is the equivalent of saying "Hello." R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik is quoted as having permitted shaking a woman's hand when necessary, and I once went to the trouble of confirming this from people who asked him directly. R. Mordechai Willig recommends what he calls a "dead fish" handshake -- shaking with a limp hand.

Granted, all agree that someone who does feel pleasure from a handshake should refrain from doing so. But a simple handshake does not, normally, give any pleasure.

I would add that this certainly varies based on culture and in some places a handshake might, indeed, be intended to demonstrate affection or closeness. In that case, it would also be forbidden. In this vein, R. Yosef Hayim of Baghdad (Od Yosef Hai 1, Shofetim) permits a woman kissing a man's hand but not shaking it, because in his culture the latter was considered an affectionate embrace.


I once heard a rabbi, who had previously worked for the OU, speak on this issue. He said that he could not understand why many of his former colleagues would shake hands with women while he went to amazing lengths to avoid shaking hands with women on the few occasions in which it arose. Had he only bothered to ask his colleagues, some of whom can learn circles around him, he might have recognized that (they and) their rabbinic mentors permit this when necessary. (NOTE that this is not intended to imply an OU policy on the subject or that everyone at the OU shakes hands with women.)

[Drago]

When she responds "You might be surprised what you can afford" then what?

Then you say that you're not interested in someone who would come so cheaply.

[churnbabychurn]

i dont think im ignorant at all - chutzpa, maybe.

I have no idea what you mean by trust, but a handshake in business is nether a matter of friendship nor closeness.  It is not endearing nor loving, it is a matter of biz protocol.

if you think shaking a woman's hand at work is chibba, thats kind of creepy to me.

You do realize that most poskim hold that its chibba. I think you dont understand what chibba means. As I tried to explain, it does not mean a sexual act.

One is not permitted to physically touch an erva. It does not have to be sexual, as long as it is a show of closeness which is arguable what a handshake is in most contexts, it is therefore ossur.

[Moes Tavern]

A few years after I got married I started a working at a new company and after a few day there I casually mentioned I had a wife and kid. One of my female coworkers asked where my ring was I said I don't have one. She started making all kinds of comments about me not having a ring & married men always being on the prowl.

That night I went home and bought a ring which I wear only when I go to work. Never had any issues again.

[LA2NYC]

You do realize that most poskim hold that its chibba. I think you dont understand what chibba means. As I tried to explain, it does not mean a sexual act.

One is not permitted to physically touch an erva. It does not have to be sexual, as long as it is a show of closeness which is arguable what a handshake is in most contexts, it is therefore ossur.

Reb yid, a business handshake is not a show of closeness whatsoever.  It's 100% the equivalent of just saying, "Hello, nice to meet you."

[zale]

If you read earlier in the thread, you'd realize it wasn't a "self-heter" as you call it but rather something that I've discussed extensively with rabbonim.  Whether we hold by the same poskim, that I don't know.  And to what you said, "Putting self-consciousness before Yiddishkeit goes against everything that Judaism stands for."  If there wasn't sufficient basis in halacha, then I wouldn't do it.

I'm happy to take suggestions from those who work in this setting - from your questions, it doesn't seem like you're too familiar.  I'm happy to listen to your mussar shmues, but I've worked with enough Frum Jews to see the opposite occur where what was meant to be a "polite explanation" just leads to a very negative interaction.

I'm not sure how you've deduced from my questions about my work status.

In fact, I own a business and hand have dealt with this more than several times. My policy is to never shake a woman's hand, period. Some women take it gracefully, other's look puzzled, but never once did they turn me down. I never once had a woman tell me that she was "offended" by my religious commitments.

My point is this: not everything in Judaism is about "Issur vs. Heter". A lot of Judaism is Hashkafa and attitude. If you are a frum Jew, you should be PROUD of it and proud to show it. This is important not only for yourself, but for your children as well, as they will be very confused as to why you are shaking hands with women, despite your "Heter". Clearly, you are ashamed of your Judaic observance, you are ashamed of your Yarmulke and ashamed to be "different". Wake up and smell the coffee! The first rule in Shulchan Aruch is not to be ashamed of your Judaism.

Count Valentine can't understand why the hell you are compromising on this, and rightfully so!