Author Topic: Liberal Paradox  (Read 10634 times)

Offline elit

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2014, 08:28:35 AM »

+1
Mr. Blumenauer makes a fantastic cogent point, manages to come across strongly with an uncompromised representation of his view but still manages to talk like a mensch!
Thanks for posting!
regardless of ur opinion on this issue I don't see how you could think he talked like a mensch. He clearly had made up his mind before he asked the questions and didn't let the guy respond to his questions and was acting very smug and obnoxiously.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2014, 08:50:41 AM »
regardless of ur opinion on this issue I don't see how you could think he talked like a mensch. He clearly had made up his mind before he asked the questions and didn't let the guy respond to his questions and was acting very smug and obnoxiously.
:o The man refused to answer even one question...

Offline elit

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2014, 09:33:23 AM »
He refused to just give a straight yes or no which would "trap" him as mr b was clearly "not trying to trap" him

Offline Myccrabbi

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2014, 09:36:24 AM »
:o The man refused to answer even one question...
cause he knew he was dealing with an idiot that says "I'm not trying to trap you" (yah right) and  only letting him answer his question is not considered letting someone talk. And when he did speak up I think he said a bashing statement, that he spoke with parents and their opinion is no.
If u work for a living, why kill urself working?

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2014, 09:56:21 AM »
Guess i must be the idiot here... :-\

Offline Moishel

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Re: Conservative Paradox
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2014, 10:02:55 AM »
Re: Conservative Paradox

Keep government small, don't invade my private life, how I lead my life is non of the governments business.

Government should dictate who can marry whom, women shouldn't have the right to go through certain procedures on their bodies.

Paradoxical?

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2014, 10:25:04 AM »

Re: Conservative Paradox

Keep government small, don't invade my private life, how I lead my life is non of the governments business.

Government should dictate who can marry whom, women shouldn't have the right to go through certain procedures on their bodies.

Paradoxical?

+1

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2014, 10:28:58 AM »
+1
Reminds me of a story I heard form a Mashpia, there was once a meeting between a few Askanim, the meeting got really heated with each side claiming Da'as Torah on their side, there was one elder Chasid sitting quietly on the side who didn't say a word the whole time until the end where he finally got up and said אלע זאגן דעת תורה און מ'מיינט זיך...

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Conservative Paradox
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2014, 11:38:19 AM »
Re: Conservative Paradox

Keep government small, don't invade my private life, how I lead my life is non of the governments business.

Government should dictate who can marry whom, women shouldn't have the right to go through certain procedures on their bodies.

Paradoxical?

It is not difficult to argue that government is charged with keeping society functioning. Especially in a country based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. While I am not saying I agree with it, but abortion could equate with murder (to some degree) and therefore the government has a role to protect its citizens (i.e. the fetus). No one is forcing the women to have sex, forgo contraception or not allowing them to put the baby up for adoption.

Again conservatives generally follow the Judeo-Christian belief system. They are consistent (generally) if not up to date with modern thinking.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2014, 11:47:15 AM »

Again conservatives generally follow the Judeo-Christian belief system. They are consistent (generally) if not up to date with modern thinking.
They may be consistent in their religious beliefs, not in their political ones.


ETA: Not taking sides here, liberals are the same...

Offline Moishel

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2014, 11:53:35 AM »
It is not difficult to argue that government is charged with keeping society functioning. Especially in a country based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. While I am not saying I agree with it, but abortion could equate with murder (to some degree) and therefore the government has a role to protect its citizens (i.e. the fetus). No one is forcing the women to have sex, forgo contraception or not allowing them to put the baby up for adoption.

Again conservatives generally follow the Judeo-Christian belief system. They are consistent (generally) if not up to date with modern thinking.
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2014, 04:07:16 PM »
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

That is the separation of church and state, which has absolutely nothing to do with the values that America was built on, nor the ethical or civil law that is founded in Judeo-Christian beliefs. This is not something that I am trying to convince anyone of, it is the way our country was founded.

Offline steeeveknowsbest

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2014, 04:15:08 PM »
regardless of ur opinion on this issue I don't see how you could think he talked like a mensch. He clearly had made up his mind before he asked the questions and didn't let the guy respond to his questions and was acting very smug and obnoxiously.
I didn't mention MY opinion at all.

 He made a extremely strong point but never once made it personal i.e. he argued like a mensch.

He clearly asked the line of questions because he suspected from the previous speaker (not in the video) that he was glossing over these points using political double talk, in order to test this theory, he asked him to address his simple questions directly. When he wouldn't do that he verified his hunch, and gave it to him. If you had watched the video a bit more carefully you would have noticed that he says that he is not "pro" marijuanna he just thinks that the political double talk is a significant part of the problem as well. Essentially they agreed on many points but not on the presentation.

Offline Moishel

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2014, 05:30:42 PM »
That is the separation of church and state, which has absolutely nothing to do with the values that America was built on, nor the ethical or civil law that is founded in Judeo-Christian beliefs. This is not something that I am trying to convince anyone of, it is the way our country was founded.

The founding fathers would disagree with you, guess the authors of the following quotes.

“If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”

“We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition… In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man’s religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.”

“The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”

“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet the one is not three, and the three are not one."

"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it."

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it"

And some other quotes that I don't even want to repeat, but it's clear that most founding father were devout atheists. This whole myth of them being Christians is made up by the conservatives.

Offline ari2955

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2014, 05:55:34 PM »
And some other quotes that I don't even want to repeat, but it's clear that most founding father were devout atheists. This whole myth of them being Christians is made up by the conservatives.

Founding principle of this Country:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,"

I wander who the atheist founders meant by "THEIR CREATOR"

Offline aygart

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2014, 06:19:12 PM »
Re: Conservative Paradox

Keep government small, don't invade my private life, how I lead my life is non of the governments business.

Government should dictate who can marry whom, women shouldn't have the right to go through certain procedures on their bodies.

Paradoxical?
I don't really see the paradox here. These are questions of definition. If a fetus is purely a limb of the mother then all would agree that she would have as much right to remove it as she has to amputate her finger. On the other hand, once it is considered a separate person all would agree that it may not be killed and would be murder. The question is where to draw that line. The conservatives who are against abortion consider the fetus to be a person and therefore believe that the mother has no more right to choose over it's life then than after it is born.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2014, 06:30:56 PM »
I don't really see the paradox here. These are questions of definition. If a fetus is purely a limb of the mother then all would agree that she would have as much right to remove it as she has to amputate her finger. On the other hand, once it is considered a separate person all would agree that it may not be killed and would be murder. The question is where to draw that line. The conservatives who are against abortion consider the fetus to be a person and therefore believe that the mother has no more right to choose over it's life then than after it is born.
The 'Shitah' of the conservatives is that people left to their own devices will (for the most part) do what is good for them and for society, and the less government gets involved the better. If so why should the government get involved in these definitions? let every person decide for him/herself?
OTOH liberals believe that the masses can not be trusted to make decisions for themselves and they need government to 'nanny' them, so why in such important matters do they leave it up to the 'dumb masses'?

Offline ari2955

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2014, 06:34:04 PM »
I don't really see the paradox here.
+1
The great question is, "when does life begin"
If you believe life begins at conception than it's not the mothers choice...

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2014, 06:39:15 PM »
The founding fathers would disagree with you, guess the authors of the following quotes.

The point is not whether the founding fathers were Christian or not, it is whether the American government and system of justice as we know it is based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. Can one of our friendly lawyers weigh in here? #AJK #Henche #JJ1000?

PS on a side note, it is important to understand where the Founding Fathers were coming from. They escaped from a world destroyed by religious fanatics. That explains a great deal of these quotes (which were mostly from a small handful of the Founding Fathers). Their sense of morality was still based deeply in the biblical beliefs.

Offline ari2955

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2014, 06:41:01 PM »
The 'Shitah' of the conservatives is that people left to their own devices will (for the most part) do what is good for them and for society, and the less government gets involved the better.
+1
But if life begins at conception than it should be the child's decision if he wants to live...