Author Topic: Liberal Paradox  (Read 10563 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2014, 12:44:48 AM »
In what way?
The way it impairs ones judgment.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline steeeveknowsbest

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2014, 02:59:39 AM »

Overall, i think that this article has some good points, yet there are few statements in this article that are not true or misleading from what i know.
"This is notable because, whatever else it is, marijuana is not healthy."
This isn't a clear fact at all. There are many indications that marijuana has certain health benefits and there is a dearth of concrete information as to it's health detriments. Basically it seems that it may cause mentally unstable people to become even more unstable. It may possibly impair the normal mental growth of teenagers.Neither of these have been proven in any way, just hypothesized.  And the argument that you can get high and drive is in my opinion not a unhealthy aspect of weed, but a possible abuse of it, and certainly not a reason for it to be illegal.
"  liberals wage political war against genetically modified organisms, french fries and tubby kids, yet stand idly by, or worse,support the legalization of a mind-impairing substance known to be addictive and have deleterious effects on the brain."
Weed is not addictive. It can become a bad habit but is not chemically addictive Calling it addictive is like calling ice cream an addictive substance since after you have had it you crave more.
 It is mind impairing but only while you are high, just like alcohol, and it does have deleterious affects on the brain but so does eating red meat (they both kill comparable amounts of brain cells).

" For many years, health-conscious liberals have waged a deafening, public war against cigarettes. Smoking bans in public places like restaurants and bars have been enacted in states all over the country. Recently, New York City, New Jersey and several other cities and states have extended those bans to include the newest tobacco fad—e-cigarettes. Yet, when it comes to smoking marijuana? Crickets."

Interestingly enough studies have not found any link between marijuana use and lung cancer despite the logical connection to smoking (science has no clue what the difference may be). It is therefor exceedingly easy to make the case that smoking shouldn't be allowed in places that others may have to inhale 2nd hand smoke and be at higher risk of lung cancer, while no evidence to such a risk from 2nd hand (or first hand) marijuana inhalation exists!

That being said, I have never smoked marijuana nor do i think it is a good habit. But i do think it should be legal along with cigs alcohol trans-fats and HUGE softdrinks!!

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2014, 04:23:45 AM »
This article is based on a premise which is simply false.
Quote
The vast amount of social data and medical science on the dangers of marijuana.
Such data doesn't exist. On the contrary, there is plenty of legitimate science showing numerous health benefits of marijuana. It is used to treat glaucoma, pain, seizures, eating disorders....
It is not all good but the positive certainly outweighs the negative by a huge margin.

Marijuana is being legalized for 2 reasons.
1. It has legitimate medical uses.
2. The social and economic costs of keeping so benign illegal make no sense.


Offline meshugener

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2014, 09:55:58 AM »

The thing is, that conservatives are also hypocrites in reverse (want marijuana banned but alcohol, cigarets, soda.. legal).
I think if we believe that goverment shouldn't be dictating what is or isn't good for us, it should apply across the board.
Well said.
Love me or hate me. I still love you.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2014, 10:06:09 AM »
The thing is, that conservatives are also hypocrites in reverse (want marijuana banned but alcohol, cigarets, soda.. legal).
I think if we believe that government shouldn't be dictating what is or isn't good for us, it should apply across the board.

The onus of proof is on he who wants to change the status quo. While I don't disagree with what you are saying, someone who actively campaigns to make one thing legal and another illegal needs to provide strong arguments supporting that position. There are many things in America that don't necessarily make sense, but inertia being what it is there is less of an argument there IMO.

On the medical side of it, while it has not been studied as extensively as cigarettes or other substances there is a preponderance of medical literature to support the notion that marijuana is detrimental to health in at least a number of categories and detrimental to society in many others. that is not to say that it cannot be legalized in extenuating circumstances as a controlled substance (ala morphine or amphetamines).

Just because certain "evils" are legal does not mean that others should be as well. Like I said status quo is hard to change. I am not saying that eth should be illegal, just the hypocrisy rubs me the wrong way.

Offline avremie

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2014, 12:56:10 PM »
IMHO its not as much as legalization as much as decriminalization its about all the money spent on fighting it which hasn't worked and all the arrests and imprisonment just for possession are a real waste of money (if I may add most of illegal possession arrests are black kids another reason that libs are on this issue - if the law targets a certain group more then other then the law is racist)
As already mentioned child obesity is a real issue especially in poor home its not a good comparison (nobody advocates pot for minors)
Bloomberg is not a ראי' for anything he once had an idea that NYC hospitals should give smaller doses of morphin even though the patient might suffer a little more but as someone already said he's okay with pot.
Liberals tax cigarettes cuz they love taxes. Period. The rest is BS

Offline Ergel

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2014, 01:44:14 PM »
Liberals tax cigarettes cuz they love taxes. Period.
Don't liberals not like taxes?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline jaywhy

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2014, 01:50:08 PM »
Really? From a two second search...
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=396766
http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM198903233201203
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/3492159/reload=0;jsessionid=Yq4WVYqWTaTk2FXLqybs.0
http://journal.publications.chestnet.org/article.aspx?articleid=1070829
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.70.6.604

Just a tiny slice of the articles available...
To summarize your articles.

1. Marijuana impairs cognitive function. No news here. It's well known that it takes up to 30 days to fully clear out but once it does, there are no long term effects on cognitive function. (On a side note, this study shows the standard of most studies that are undertaken in the US about pot. IE, it is virtually impossible to get funding unless the point of your study is to show that pot is bad. Lol, they took heavy, constant users and tested them 19 hours after they had last smoked. I could have saved them all that money and told them the results before they even started.)

2. Marijuana during pregnancy is bad. No news here either. I don't think any advocate of marijuana would recommend that a pregnant woman should smoke pot.

3. Smoking marijuana impairs respiratory function. Again, no news. It's commonly accepted that inhaling any combustible substance impairs respiratory function. There are other methods for taking it like vaporizing or eating edibles...

4. Marijuana leads to less commonly accepted behaviors like not going to church, less religiosity, greater tolerance of deviance....
Sounds like the perception of marijuana in the 1970's. Oh wait, that's when the study is from.

Marijuana has been shown to be effective in treating many medical conditions, sometimes even more effective than any other conventional medicine.
Like, ADD/ADHD, glaucoma, chronic pain, HIV/AIDS, cancer, nausea and vomiting, eating disorders, Tourette's, seizures, migraines, multiple sclerosis, IBS and Crohn's, Alzheimers, PMS.....

To say marijuana is all bad and should stay illegal is doing everyone a disservice. Just legalize it and tax it to make the bleeding liberal heart feel better.



Offline avremie

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2014, 02:13:11 PM »
Don't liberals not like taxes?
I mean liberal Democrats not the old classical liberals what we would today call conservative or libertarian

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2014, 02:35:59 PM »
Marijuana has been shown to be effective in treating many medical conditions, sometimes even more effective than any other conventional medicine.
Like, ADD/ADHD, glaucoma, chronic pain, HIV/AIDS, cancer, nausea and vomiting, eating disorders, Tourette's, seizures, migraines, multiple sclerosis, IBS and Crohn's, Alzheimers, PMS.....

To say marijuana is all bad and should stay illegal is doing everyone a disservice. Just legalize it and tax it to make the bleeding liberal heart feel better.

It is a complicated and challenging dilemma no doubt. As was mentioned there is little benefit to spending tons of $$ and landing a bunch of teenagers in jail. However there are issues with simply legalizing it as well. My point again is why try to ban other substances that will prove to have the same issues (trans fat, obesity-inducing diets etc).

Furthermore, you make claims about the benefits of marijuana use. Firstly these can be dealt with through medical marijuana prescribed by physicians. Secondly, where are the studies proving any of these points? Anecdotal evidence is hardly strong enough to determine that a banned substance should become legal.

There are more negative health outcomes associated with marijuana use and likely many more that will only become known when its use becomes more commonplace and destigmatized.

Offline IsraelGuy

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2014, 09:39:27 AM »
Such data doesn't exist.

To summarize your articles.

1. Marijuana impairs cognitive function. No news here.
2. Marijuana during pregnancy is bad. No news here either.
3. Smoking marijuana impairs respiratory function. Again, no news.

I'm not sure I understand your position. My intent was not to bring new earth-shattering news to light. My point was that a claim that marijuana has no detrimental health effects is absolutely absurd. It's certainly has detrimental effects, especially in the manner and quantity that most users consume the item.

Offline yitzf

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2014, 11:00:55 AM »
To summarize your articles.

1. Marijuana impairs cognitive function. No news here. It's well known that it takes up to 30 days to fully clear out but once it does, there are no long term effects on cognitive function.

The fact that it impairs cognitive function for a full month is a pretty nasty effect IMO.

If we had the same amount of people smoking pot as cigarettes then about 20% of society would be walking around with impaired judgement because they had a joint sometime in the last 30 days.

I think that alone would make it a lot worse than alcohol.

Offline IsraelGuy

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2014, 01:40:26 PM »
I think that alone would make it a lot worse than alcohol.

The impairment I'm sure varies, and  I'm not advocating that marijuana should be legal and alcohol should be illegal, the other way around, or any other combination.

And alcohol is also a pretty nasty bugger. So many people die every year from alcohol-related diseases and accidents. In addition to liver damage, you've got all kinds of infections, dilated cardiomyopathies, Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome, esophageal cancer, pancreatitis, anemias and osteonecrosis to name just a few. Truth is almost anything taken in excess will damage the body (you can die from water intoxication), but it does seem that certain substances are more prone to abuse; alcohol, cigarettes, and marijuana seem to be included.

Offline U-no-me!

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2014, 11:01:03 AM »
Vote U-no-me '14!

Offline Nitantnel

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2014, 11:06:33 AM »
The impairment I'm sure varies, and  I'm not advocating that marijuana should be legal and alcohol should be illegal, the other way around, or any other combination.

And alcohol is also a pretty nasty bugger. So many people die every year from alcohol-related diseases and accidents. In addition to liver damage, you've got all kinds of infections, dilated cardiomyopathies, Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome, esophageal cancer, pancreatitis, anemias and osteonecrosis to name just a few. Truth is almost anything taken in excess will damage the body (you can die from water intoxication), but it does seem that certain substances are more prone to abuse; alcohol, cigarettes, and marijuana seem to be included.

The body discourages water intoxication -- the person who reportedly died from it was trying to win a silly competition. Whereas alcohol, once addicted, the body encourages intoxication.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2014, 08:48:28 PM »

Offline Myccrabbi

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2014, 09:53:13 PM »
If u work for a living, why kill urself working?

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2014, 10:04:53 PM »
mr blumenauer is clearly a idiot!

I guess 2 people can see the same thing yet clearly see 2 different things... ::)

Offline steeeveknowsbest

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Re: Liberal Paradox
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2014, 12:26:30 AM »
I guess 2 people can see the same thing yet clearly see 2 different things... ::)
+1
Mr. Blumenauer makes a fantastic cogent point, manages to come across strongly with an uncompromised representation of his view but still manages to talk like a mensch!
Thanks for posting!