Zionist Mindset

[good sam]

Not when he believes in it.

Believes in it how? He doesn't keep its commandments.

[avadah]

Believes in it how? He doesn't keep its commandments.

The new testament is based on it so he is working thru that interpretation.

Since when did belief become a pre-requisite for quoting a source?

You would quote a source that you know isn't true?
Only if you're trying to pull a fast one.

[DBK]

The new testament is based on it so he is working thru that interpretation.
You would quote a source that you know isn't true?
Only if you're trying to pull a fast one.

One may believe it is true and still choose not to follow it. That's called free will.
Does not negate one's right or ability to quote the source.

[Achas Veachas]

One may believe it is true and still choose not to follow it. That's called free will.
Does not negate one's right or ability to quote the source.

Picking and choosing which parts apply and which don't sounds hypocritical to me...

[churnbabychurn]

Picking and choosing which parts apply and which don't sounds hypocritical to me...

Duh!

[avadah]

Picking and choosing which parts apply and which don't sounds hypocritical to me...

+1

[DBK]

Picking and choosing which parts apply and which don't sounds hypocritical to me...

I agree with you. However everyone of us does it (not to excuse it) its human nature- yet I would not call everyone a hypocrite for it. Additionally, its a quote within a speech there is also that fact, hes not giving over a dvar torah.

[Achas Veachas]

I agree with you. However everyone of us does it (not to excuse it) its human nature- yet I would not call everyone a hypocrite for it...

There's a difference between someone who misses out on a Mitzvah occasionally and someone who says B'Shitah "These parts of the Torah are irrelevant today but this part is"...

[churnbabychurn]

They "believe" in the history of it, there's more than enough archeological proof.

They just believe that times have changed and that the commandments no longer apply.

The fact that jews intermittently occupied israel throughout history is not debatable and also does not mean they have a right to the land.

The only way they prove a "right" is by quoting tanach that says that G-D, wrote that he will give it to the Jews.
This is sheer Chutzpa IMHO, they dont just think that commandments "dont apply", they make mockery of the Torah. Many of them are even atheists. 

[YankyDoodle]

Maybe my point was misunderstood. Great Britain owned the land and gave it to the Jewish people. After that point other countries attacked Israel and in the process some of their land was annexed (not unlike the land Germany lost after the Treaty of Versailles and countless other examples).

It doesn't take a genius to see the flaw in the argument everyone is trying to make against secular Zionism, stop trying so hard to prove that it can only be through biblical belief. Yes, biblical belief helps, especially when most of the relevant world was religious 60+ years ago. That does not negate the fact that we live in a world where might makes right.

[churnbabychurn]

Since when did belief become a pre-requisite for quoting a source?

They are not quoting a source. The Zionist claim to the land is based on the Torah that they think is a joke.
As quoted above, the torah is "their mandate to the land". Everything elses the Torah teaches is irrelevant.

Not sure why anyone here would be defending them. I assume that there are some religious zionist here, but at least they have a logical claim.

[churnbabychurn]

Maybe my point was misunderstood. Great Britain owned the land

Wow!

[avadah]

Maybe my point was misunderstood. Great Britain owned the land and gave it to the Jewish people. After that point other countries attacked Israel and in the process some of their land was annexed (not unlike the land Germany lost after the Treaty of Versailles and countless other examples).

It doesn't take a genius to see the flaw in the argument everyone is trying to make against secular Zionism, stop trying so hard to prove that it can only be through biblical belief. Yes, biblical belief helps, especially when most of the relevant world was religious 60+ years ago. That does not negate the fact that we live in a world where might makes right.

CMIIW but they don't use this to claim ownership. They go with the bible approach.

[YankyDoodle]

Wow!

You can pick one word and overreact to it or you can address the substance of the argument. Great Britain defeated the Ottoman Empire and thereby gained the right to do as they saw fit with the land. Please show me where in history or international law there is any indication contrary to that. The fact that the British had their hands full and had no interest in permanently occupying a land of people that did care for them does not change their control of it.

[YankyDoodle]

CMIIW but they don't use this to claim ownership. They go with the bible approach.

First of all, "they" is a large and diverse group. Secondly, if they claim the right to the land based on the Bible, is it so difficult to see the Torah as a history book? I'm not going to get into the discussion about how dare they quote Torah if they don't follow it. Yes, it's ironic and maybe slightly hypocritical. Get over it. Seriously.

[DBK]

There's a difference between someone who misses out on a Mitzvah occasionally and someone who says B'Shitah "These parts of the Torah are irrelevant today but this part is"...

100%. But IMHO that should not have bearing of their right or ability to quote Torah. We are not a banishing religion who damn people for not being shomer torah and mitzvos.

First of all, "they" is a large and diverse group. Secondly, if they claim the right to the land based on the Bible, is it so difficult to see the Torah as a history book? I'm not going to get into the discussion about how dare they quote Torah if they don't follow it. Yes, it's ironic and maybe slightly hypocritical. Get over it. Seriously.

They are not quoting a source. The Zionist claim to the land is based on the Torah that they think is a joke.
As quoted above, the torah is "their mandate to the land". Everything elses the Torah teaches is irrelevant.

Not sure why anyone here would be defending them. I assume that there are some religious zionist here, but at least they have a logical claim.

I am not defending their religious choices. It is not up to me to prosecute them nor defend their actions. I am simply stating that they have a right to quote Torah independently from how they choose to practice.

You can pick one word and overreact to it or you can address the substance of the argument. Great Britain defeated the Ottoman Empire and thereby gained the right to do as they saw fit with the land. Please show me where in history or international law there is any indication contrary to that. The fact that the British had their hands full and had no interest in permanently occupying a land of people that did care for them does not change their control of it.

+1

[Achas Veachas]

100%. But IMHO that should not have bearing of their right or ability to quote Torah. We are not a banishing religion who damn people for not being shomer torah and mitzvos.

I wasn't bashing anyone for how they live their lives, I was bashing their claim as hypocritical.

It is not up to me to prosecute them nor defend their actions. I am simply stating that they have a right to quote Torah independently from how they choose to practice.

Not if they make fun of [parts of] it and those who believe [those parts] to be true...

[churnbabychurn]

You can pick one word and overreact to it or you can address the substance of the argument. Great Britain defeated the Ottoman Empire and thereby gained the right to do as they saw fit with the land. Please show me where in history or international law there is any indication contrary to that. The fact that the British had their hands full and had no interest in permanently occupying a land of people that did care for them does not change their control of it.

Ok, lets go with your argument. The Jews are basically conquerors that managed to find favor in the eyes of the british. "The mightiest win"? Fine, so according to you, the palestinian uprising against the mighty Jewish conquerors is one hundred percent legitimate. If C'V they become "mightier" they have a legitimate right to kick the Jews out.

No one is making theses arguments, they are inherently dangerous.

[DBK]

I wasn't bashing anyone for how they live their lives, I was bashing their claim as hypocritical.Not if they make fun of [parts of] it and those who believe [those parts] to be true...

I still do not understand why one should negate the other? Do I agree or condone that behavior? Absolutely not
Does that type of disgusting behavior negate their right to quote scripture? I do not believe so.
And again I AGREE that their behaviors are wrong I just think the two are mutually exclusive.

[Achas Veachas]

I still do not understand why one should negate the other? Do I agree or condone that behavior? Absolutely not
Does that type of disgusting behavior negate their right to quote scripture? I do not believe so.
And again I AGREE that their behaviors are wrong I just think the two are mutually exclusive.

If someone says the Torah is a bunch of fairy tales (R"L), than how can you use it to base your claims for land?