Author Topic: Zionist Mindset  (Read 6266 times)

Offline DBK

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2014, 04:41:44 PM »
There's a difference between someone who misses out on a Mitzvah occasionally and someone who says B'Shitah "These parts of the Torah are irrelevant today but this part is"...
100%. But IMHO that should not have bearing of their right or ability to quote Torah. We are not a banishing religion who damn people for not being shomer torah and mitzvos.
First of all, "they" is a large and diverse group. Secondly, if they claim the right to the land based on the Bible, is it so difficult to see the Torah as a history book? I'm not going to get into the discussion about how dare they quote Torah if they don't follow it. Yes, it's ironic and maybe slightly hypocritical. Get over it. Seriously.
They are not quoting a source. The Zionist claim to the land is based on the Torah that they think is a joke.
As quoted above, the torah is "their mandate to the land". Everything elses the Torah teaches is irrelevant.

Not sure why anyone here would be defending them. I assume that there are some religious zionist here, but at least they have a logical claim.
I am not defending their religious choices. It is not up to me to prosecute them nor defend their actions. I am simply stating that they have a right to quote Torah independently from how they choose to practice.
You can pick one word and overreact to it or you can address the substance of the argument. Great Britain defeated the Ottoman Empire and thereby gained the right to do as they saw fit with the land. Please show me where in history or international law there is any indication contrary to that. The fact that the British had their hands full and had no interest in permanently occupying a land of people that did care for them does not change their control of it.
+1

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2014, 04:45:13 PM »
100%. But IMHO that should not have bearing of their right or ability to quote Torah. We are not a banishing religion who damn people for not being shomer torah and mitzvos.
I wasn't bashing anyone for how they live their lives, I was bashing their claim as hypocritical.
It is not up to me to prosecute them nor defend their actions. I am simply stating that they have a right to quote Torah independently from how they choose to practice.
Not if they make fun of [parts of] it and those who believe [those parts] to be true...
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2014, 04:48:06 PM »
You can pick one word and overreact to it or you can address the substance of the argument. Great Britain defeated the Ottoman Empire and thereby gained the right to do as they saw fit with the land. Please show me where in history or international law there is any indication contrary to that. The fact that the British had their hands full and had no interest in permanently occupying a land of people that did care for them does not change their control of it.
Ok, lets go with your argument. The Jews are basically conquerors that managed to find favor in the eyes of the british. "The mightiest win"? Fine, so according to you, the palestinian uprising against the mighty Jewish conquerors is one hundred percent legitimate. If C'V they become "mightier" they have a legitimate right to kick the Jews out.

No one is making theses arguments, they are inherently dangerous.

Offline DBK

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #78 on: February 26, 2014, 04:48:26 PM »
I wasn't bashing anyone for how they live their lives, I was bashing their claim as hypocritical.Not if they make fun of [parts of] it and those who believe [those parts] to be true...
I still do not understand why one should negate the other? Do I agree or condone that behavior? Absolutely not
Does that type of disgusting behavior negate their right to quote scripture? I do not believe so.
And again I AGREE that their behaviors are wrong I just think the two are mutually exclusive.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2014, 05:04:13 PM »
I still do not understand why one should negate the other? Do I agree or condone that behavior? Absolutely not
Does that type of disgusting behavior negate their right to quote scripture? I do not believe so.
And again I AGREE that their behaviors are wrong I just think the two are mutually exclusive.
If someone says the Torah is a bunch of fairy tales (R"L), than how can you use it to base your claims for land?
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #80 on: February 26, 2014, 05:22:24 PM »
Is the argument here that the Jews right to Israel is based on the Torah?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #81 on: February 26, 2014, 05:24:51 PM »
Is the argument here that the Jews right to Israel is based on the Torah?
You always seem to just get it!
 The Jews are always haggling, cant deal with them.  ;)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #82 on: February 26, 2014, 05:29:54 PM »
You always seem to just get it!
 The Jews are always haggling, cant deal with them.  ;)
Since we are haggling can I get the Via Dolorosa for the Catholics?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2014, 05:36:20 PM »
Since we are haggling can I get the Via Dolorosa for the Catholics?
Not if Hamas has their way...
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2014, 05:38:50 PM »
Ok, lets go with your argument. The Jews are basically conquerors that managed to find favor in the eyes of the british. "The mightiest win"? Fine, so according to you, the palestinian uprising against the mighty Jewish conquerors is one hundred percent legitimate. If C'V they become "mightier" they have a legitimate right to kick the Jews out.

No one is making theses arguments, they are inherently dangerous.
No, targeting innocent civilians is wrong according to all moral and legal arguments. Declaring war over a disagreement is common and is settled on the battlefield. The war generally continues until one of the sides recognizes that they are losing and chooses to make piece before they suffer greater casualties. By that point some land may have been conquered and the victorious country keeps it, "to the victor goes the spoils". The end.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2014, 06:03:12 PM »
This no hurting of civilians /geneva convention is a fairly new concept, has almost no historical precedence. Thats all the jews have to stand on?

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #86 on: February 26, 2014, 06:11:30 PM »
This no hurting of civilians /geneva convention is a fairly new concept, has almost no historical precedence. Thats all the jews have to stand on?

That's simply not true... source? Civilian life has been respected (at the very least not specifically targeted) throughout all major wars of recent times).

The point is Israel doesn't need anything else to stand on! They are the current inhabitants of the land and have rebuffed attack after attack. What does America have to stand on? You are trying so hard to find a reason to say that it can only be based on the Torah that you are not even thinking straight. Like I said, the Bible story is great, it only enhances the claim. But it is not necessary for thinking people to recognize Israel.

Offline avadah

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #87 on: February 26, 2014, 06:15:16 PM »
First of all, "they" is a large and diverse group. Secondly, if they claim the right to the land based on the Bible, is it so difficult to see the Torah as a history book? I'm not going to get into the discussion about how dare they quote Torah if they don't follow it. Yes, it's ironic and maybe slightly hypocritical. Get over it. Seriously.
1) "They" are not a diverse group. "They" are secular Zionists.
2) If the Torah is C"V merely a history book then it really has no bearing on current events. The claim is based on a promise from G-D to the Jewish people. According to you, that's nothing more than an old treaty. Let the Ottomans/Turkey claim ownership because they once owned it too.

Offline avadah

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #88 on: February 26, 2014, 06:16:57 PM »
That's simply not true... source? Civilian life has been respected (at the very least not specifically targeted) throughout all major wars of recent times).

The point is Israel doesn't need anything else to stand on! They are the current inhabitants of the land and have rebuffed attack after attack. What does America have to stand on? You are trying so hard to find a reason to say that it can only be based on the Torah that you are not even thinking straight. Like I said, the Bible story is great, it only enhances the claim. But it is not necessary for thinking people to recognize Israel.
I'm asking you again. How often do you hear the Israelis use that claim?

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Zionist Mindset
« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2014, 06:27:57 PM »
1) "They" are not a diverse group. "They" are secular Zionists.
2) If the Torah is C"V merely a history book then it really has no bearing on current events. The claim is based on a promise from G-D to the Jewish people. According to you, that's nothing more than an old treaty. Let the Ottomans/Turkey claim ownership because they once owned it too.
1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#Liberal_Zionism For a list of some of the many forms of Zionism.
2) For secular Zionists the claim about the biblical significance of Israel is less about what G-d promised the Jews and more about the historical, sociological significance of the land for the Jews.

I'm asking you again. How often do you hear the Israelis use that claim?
My answer was more in response to those who argue that the secular Zionists have no argument for the land and that the only conceivable argument is that G-d promised it to the Jews. I am simply pointing out that they don't have to believe in the Torah to still feel a nationalistic right to the land.