Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[yoshi]

Was thinking it would be a good topic of discussion.

[yoshi]

Assifah today in New York.

[casualchurner]

Was thinking it would be a good topic of discussion.

Maybe we should rephrase the question: "Should yeshiva bochurim in Israel be pulled out of the beis medrash where they learn all day and be forcefully inducted into the army?"
What do you think??
Forgive me for being blunt but I can't see how anyone, with a chareidi torahdig upbringing, can justify what the Israeli government is trying to do.

[ual902]

Well if your not really in yeshiva and DDFing all day then yes go to the army, I heard the army is allot of fun plus you'll learn allot about life, my undestanding there are allot of BSers in Israel who avoid the army.

[avremie]

If they were to get all chareidim in the army the obvious next step would be the chareidi girls that would definitely be against halacha so let's be one step ahead.

[ariIs]

Maybe we should rephrase the question: "Should yeshiva bochurim in Israel be pulled out of the beis medrash where they learn all day and be forcefully inducted into the army?"
What do you think??
Forgive me for being blunt but I can't see how anyone, with a chareidi torahdig upbringing, can justify what the Israeli government is trying to do.

Are all charedi bochurim actually learning in yeshiva? A friend of mine in kolel there tells me there are plenty of ppl who come once a month just to be counted.

Of course the majority are learning, but there is a sizable minority.

[Super Speed]

Are all charedi bochurim actually learning in yeshiva? A friend of mine in kolel there tells me there are plenty of ppl who come once a month just to be counted.

Of course the majority are learning, but there is a sizable minority.

So for the sizable minority we shouldn't fight the draft?

[rots5]

ask r' shtienman…. i think he already answered

[Achas Veachas]

Are all charedi bochurim actually learning in yeshiva? A friend of mine in kolel there tells me there are plenty of ppl who come once a month just to be counted.

Of course the majority are learning, but there is a sizable minority.

There are draft dodgers everywhere, should the army stop giving Pturs to mentally unstable people because half of Tzfon Tel Aviv is on KaBaN?

[lfas25]

Was thinking it would be a good topic of discussion.

Depends do you get any sign up points or miles?
Is there an AF?
Could you get multiple sign up bonuses?

[casualchurner]

Well if your not really in yeshiva and DDFing all day then yes go to the army, I heard the army is allot of fun plus you'll learn allot about life, my undestanding there are allot of BSers in Israel who avoid the army.

Yes, granted there are guys who get a dichui (deferment) from the army and they're sitting around and doing nothing all day. But for the guys who are actually sitting and learning (whom I believe are the majority), they should be allowed to continue doing just that!

[Aaaron]

Yes, granted there are guys who get a dichui (deferment) from the army and they're sitting around and doing nothing all day. But for the guys who are actually sitting and learning (whom I believe are the majority), they should be allowed to continue doing just that!

To play devil's advocate and get slightly off topic, should they then be allowed to collect any sort of stipend from the government if they refuse to contribute economically/physically/etc.?

[tzvicoco]

While I definitely see the value of learning, I do believe that every young person in Israel should be required to give back... Personally I think that bachurim should serve the country for 5-6 years during their bein hazmanim (in av and Nissan), and that both be in hazmanims should be extended a few weeks so they end up serving for 2-3 months of the year. It doesn't have to be in the army (that would be difficult because of the training), but working in hospitals and other  governmental establishments would be sufficient.

[asd]

This is something for the gedolim to decide and if you cant understand that you will never understand what is wrong with drafting them.

[churnbabychurn]

To play devil's advocate and get slightly off topic, should they then be allowed to collect any sort of stipend from the government if they refuse to contribute economically/physically/etc.?

Are the "stipends" any different than the social programs in the USA? Would you ask foodstamp recipients to "give back" by doing community service, or would that be unfair?

The sole requirement to receive government programs should be poverty. Not some social status, situation or contribution. That would be prejudice.

[ariIs]

So for the sizable minority we shouldn't fight the draft?

The draft is not of everyone. There is a sizable amount of yeshiva exemptions. They're not suggesting that all Haredim go to the army.
They want to limit the number of exemptions.

[ariIs]

Are the "stipends" any different than the social programs in the USA? Would you ask foodstamp recipients to "give back" by doing community service, or would that be unfair?

The sole requirement to receive government programs should be poverty. Not some social status, situation or contribution. That would be prejudice.

FWIW, welfare recipients are required to work in cleaning streets, etc. in NY, unless they are deemed physically unable to work.

[churnbabychurn]

FWIW, welfare recipients are required to work in cleaning streets, etc. in NY, unless they are deemed physically unable to work.

-9

[Menachem613]

Are the "stipends" any different than the social programs in the USA? Would you ask foodstamp recipients to "give back" by doing community service, or would that be unfair?

The sole requirement to receive government programs should be poverty. Not some social status, situation or contribution. That would be prejudice.

After a while, they will run out of other people's money.

[Aaaron]

Are the "stipends" any different than the social programs in the USA? Would you ask foodstamp recipients to "give back" by doing community service, or would that be unfair?

The sole requirement to receive government programs should be poverty. Not some social status, situation or contribution. That would be prejudice.

Two things:

First, our communities often rail against various minorities who abuse governmental programs, but this is partaking in a grand way.  "Do  as I say, not as I do?"

Second,  there's no social expectation here of serving our country; no draft, no public service requirement, etc., so you can't even compare.