Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 12423 times)

Offline Expert Flyer

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #120 on: March 10, 2014, 12:18:23 PM »
That math is wrong. You'd be taking $50k out if the guy was being paid $50,000 and not working . Since the $50k remains in the hands of the employer, the only thing missing is the increased expense to hire someone of similar productivity.

I should have added that I did not write this myself  :D

Offline good sam

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #121 on: March 10, 2014, 12:36:24 PM »
I should have added that I did not write this myself  :D
You didn't have to  :D
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Offline henche

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #122 on: March 10, 2014, 12:57:19 PM »
That math is wrong. You'd be taking $50k out if the guy was being paid $50,000 and not working . Since the $50k remains in the hands of the employer, the only thing missing is the increased expense to hire someone of similar productivity.

I'm guessing the (poorly explained) theory is this:

When the govt pays money to someone, it doesn't (directly) reduce productivity or social utility. It just moves money from one hand to another (or one person's hand to another's). So if govt pays a soldier 50k, it costs zero in social utility.

But when govt forces a person to stop productive activity and instead be a soldier, net social utility is decreased by whatever he would have produced. So if it's a 50k producer, it is lowered by 50k; if a 100k producer, it is lowered by 100k.

So society should want the lowest producers to be in the army. (Hence they want the chareidim...)

Of course, though, this only values production of money. If you value other things also, the calculations change. But economists don't like to value other things because it doesn't lead to easy clear answers.

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #123 on: March 10, 2014, 01:09:25 PM »
I'm guessing the (poorly explained) theory is this:

When the govt pays money to someone, it doesn't (directly) reduce productivity or social utility. It just moves money from one hand to another (or one person's hand to another's). So if govt pays a soldier 50k, it costs zero in social utility.

But when govt forces a person to stop productive activity and instead be a soldier, net social utility is decreased by whatever he would have produced. So if it's a 50k producer, it is lowered by 50k; if a 100k producer, it is lowered by 100k.

So society should want the lowest producers to be in the army. (Hence they want the chareidim...)

Of course, though, this only values production of money. If you value other things also, the calculations change. But economists don't like to value other things because it doesn't lead to easy clear answers.

+1

Offline Chaikel

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #124 on: March 10, 2014, 01:39:14 PM »
That
Notably Ehud Barak
And the Minister of Defense. I wonder if he has an inkling about what might be necessary to run his army
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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #125 on: March 10, 2014, 01:49:53 PM »

While I disagree that the draft is there to destroy Thora, I's side with the chareidim as I oppose a mandatory draft
The whole point of the Army is to bring about a new Judaism, more then it is there for protection. So yes even if a guy isn't learning but he is Chareidi he should be exempt.

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #126 on: March 10, 2014, 01:52:24 PM »
Someone is forgetting about the "Kur Hituch"....

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #127 on: March 10, 2014, 02:05:45 PM »
The whole point of the Army is to bring about a new Judaism, more then it is there for protection. So yes even if a guy isn't learning but he is Chareidi he should be exempt.

There should be no exemptions. Sounds similar to  state subsidies.
Just abolish the draft.

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #128 on: March 10, 2014, 02:54:34 PM »
When the govt pays money to someone, it doesn't (directly) reduce productivity or social utility. It just moves money from one hand to another (or one person's hand to another's). So if govt pays a soldier 50k, it costs zero in social utility.

But when govt forces a person to stop productive activity and instead be a soldier, net social utility is decreased by whatever he would have produced. So if it's a 50k producer, it is lowered by 50k; if a 100k producer, it is lowered by 100k.


You're premise is that a soldier in the army only contributes to social utility if he is paid for it. Yet the production is the same regardless of the payment.

If 101 people live in a country with average salaries of $50,000 and government taxes 100 people $500 each in order to fund a $50k salary for the 1 soldier, net social utility (including the soldier) is $5,000,000. If the government doesn't tax anyone, but instead drafts the 1 soldier without a salary, net social utility is $5,050,000.

If you don't count the soldiers labor towards social utility, then it would 4,950,000 and 5,000,000 respectively.

What you seem to be saying is that anything that generates a salary is considered social utility here, yet in truth anything that should earn a salary is economic production. According to your theory the solution would be to give the guy a salary and then tax it away from him. Then we'd definitely be ahead with the draft.



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Offline henche

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #129 on: March 10, 2014, 02:57:26 PM »
You're premise is that a soldier in the army only contributes to social utility if he is paid for it. Yet the production is the same regardless of the payment.

If 101 people live in a country with average salaries of $50,000 and government taxes 100 people $500 each in order to fund a $50k salary for the 1 soldier, net social utility (including the soldier) is $5,000,000. If the government doesn't tax anyone, but instead drafts the 1 soldier without a salary, net social utility is $5,050,000.

If you don't count the soldiers labor towards social utility, then it would 4,950,000 and 5,000,000 respectively.

What you seem to be saying is that anything that generates a salary is considered social utility here, yet in truth anything that should earn a salary is economic production. According to your theory the solution would be to give the guy a salary and then tax it away from him. Then we'd definitely be ahead with the draft.

I'm not sure I follow.

Things add social utility when they produce stuff that people like.
Things subtract from social utility when they produce stuff that people don't like.
Moving money from one person to another is net zero. (except that people don't like it, but economists don't care about that part)

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #130 on: March 10, 2014, 02:59:18 PM »

Moving money from one person to another is net zero. (except that people don't like it, but economists don't care about that part)
It subtracts from the utility of the people who earned, just like if you'd burn the money
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Offline MoGro17

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #131 on: March 10, 2014, 03:40:20 PM »
Clearly, the easiest solution would be to do away with the draft and create a professional army. Drones, robots, etc are the future of war anyway so you don't need cannon fodder anymore. One highly-trained soldier with a joystick and a $1k drone can do more damage than a whole platoon of bloodthirsty marines. This way, only those that want to be in the military will actually be in the military.
Instead, Israel should have mandated community service and compel people to find a job. Any (real) job. This solves the issue of znus in the army.
As for those that want to sit and learn until the day they die, go for it. Provided you actually do it EVERY day. There will be an audit system and a testing system to see if you are keeping up the hard work or not. The Israeli government has shown a willingness to work with Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivah in the past so I see no reason why this can't work out.

Just a thought  ;)

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #132 on: March 10, 2014, 03:41:33 PM »
$1k drone

Shows just how much you know

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #133 on: March 10, 2014, 03:52:03 PM »
Shows just how much you know

The point, good sir, is that even a bottom-rung drone can be devastating with some training.
While most governments overpay for drones, I am well aware that a $1k drone doesn't make that much sense. I'm tired not clueless.

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #134 on: March 10, 2014, 04:02:13 PM »
It seems to me that the current status quo is that people who want an exemption end up getting it pretty easily
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