Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 17114 times)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #140 on: March 10, 2014, 05:02:06 PM »
Ok, so what you're advocating is that only poor people, or people who want to go into underpaid professions should go to the army, while rich people with good educations should not?
Why don't we also institute a payment system where rich parents can pay into the system (hey, more govt revenue!) to have their kids not be drafted!
Only the poor should die for their country.
Yep, that seems really fair to me.

Switzerland has a lifetime higher income tax for draft exempts 
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline MoGro17

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #141 on: March 10, 2014, 05:02:46 PM »
Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.
P.S. I know my comment makes it sound like its all about the money. It's not. While money plays a significant role, I'm just as concerned about the bitul torah and the wasted time/energy/productivity.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #142 on: March 10, 2014, 05:03:01 PM »
Switzerland has a lifetime higher income tax for draft exempts 
That only matters if you are paying income taxes
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #143 on: March 10, 2014, 05:04:28 PM »
That only matters if you are paying income taxes
haha
Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.
I was talking about non frum people who don't seem to have such a hard time getting out
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline MoGro17

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #144 on: March 10, 2014, 05:07:04 PM »
I was talking about non frum people who don't seem to have such a hard time getting out
Excellent point.
There is no question that the current enforcement system leaves much to be desired.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #145 on: March 10, 2014, 05:07:51 PM »
Excellent point.
There is no question that the current enforcement system leaves much to be desired.
Perhaps because they don't really need everyone?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2014, 05:13:46 PM »
Excellent point.
There is no question that the current enforcement system leaves much to be desired.
You can't really force someone who doesn't want to serve to serve, he'll make a real lousy soldier and lower the general morale.

Offline aygart

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2014, 06:11:15 PM »
Did you forget #sarcasm?
NOOOOO!!! Do you have any research or numbers to back up your ASSUMPTION?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Ergel

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #148 on: March 10, 2014, 06:48:20 PM »
NOOOOO!!! Do you have any research or numbers to back up your ASSUMPTION?
From a simple Google search. I'm sure there are more scientific sources

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/22/AR2008012203326.html

Singled out by the Pentagon for intense recruitment drives are urban centers such as Los Angeles and New York. The latter, in which low-income students account for 51% of all high school enrollment and where 71% are black or Latino, contains three of the nation’s top 32 counties for Army enlistment. In Los Angeles, 91% of the students are non-white and 75% are low-income.
And the Coalition Against Militarism in Our Schools says the 30 JROTC programs in Los Angeles Unified School District (with 4,754 students) are “Located in the most economically depressed communities of the city.”
African-Americans make up 16% of the civilian population of military age but 22% of the Army’s enlisted personnel, the ACLU notes. It charges bluntly: “The U.S. military’s practice of targeting low-income youth and students of color in combination with exaggerated promises of financial rewards for enlistment, undermines the voluntariness of their enlistment…”
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline ariIs

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #149 on: March 10, 2014, 07:04:25 PM »
Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.

+1

Offline aygart

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #150 on: March 10, 2014, 07:07:29 PM »
From a simple Google search. I'm sure there are more scientific sources

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/22/AR2008012203326.html

Singled out by the Pentagon for intense recruitment drives are urban centers such as Los Angeles and New York. The latter, in which low-income students account for 51% of all high school enrollment and where 71% are black or Latino, contains three of the nation’s top 32 counties for Army enlistment. In Los Angeles, 91% of the students are non-white and 75% are low-income.
And the Coalition Against Militarism in Our Schools says the 30 JROTC programs in Los Angeles Unified School District (with 4,754 students) are “Located in the most economically depressed communities of the city.”
African-Americans make up 16% of the civilian population of military age but 22% of the Army’s enlisted personnel, the ACLU notes. It charges bluntly: “The U.S. military’s practice of targeting low-income youth and students of color in combination with exaggerated promises of financial rewards for enlistment, undermines the voluntariness of their enlistment…”

You didn't search well enough. See page 19 of the military's demographics report. 93% have some college experience. None of what you quoted shows anything about income class in the actual military. This report using scientific methodology, rather that anecdotes intended to advance an opinion shows that the exact opposite is true. Of course, take the source with a grain of salt.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #151 on: March 10, 2014, 09:39:35 PM »
You didn't search well enough. See page 19 of the military's demographics report. 93% have some college experience.

That's cuz the army pays for it
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline aygart

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #152 on: March 10, 2014, 11:41:44 PM »
That wouldn't get them the high school diploma. The racial numbers are wrong as well according to page 51. Education is discussed ingreater depth on page 66.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #153 on: March 10, 2014, 11:44:24 PM »
That wouldn't get them the high school diploma. The racial numbers are wrong as well according to page 51. Education is discussed ingreater depth on page 66.
Isn't HS diploma a perquisite?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline aygart

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #154 on: March 11, 2014, 12:00:41 AM »
It seems there are some who do not have one, and this was a major premise of the WP article.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #155 on: March 11, 2014, 12:08:20 AM »
This bar chart from he left wing NPP also belies that myth.

P.S. They are the source of the WP!

Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline good sam

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If you don't care why would you comment?
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Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #157 on: March 12, 2014, 02:43:17 PM »
The law is a joke for the precise reason that they can't enforce it without a civil war.
It will either be repealed or won't be enforced.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #158 on: March 12, 2014, 03:04:22 PM »
The law is a joke for the precise reason that they can't enforce it without a civil war.
It will either be repealed or won't be enforced.
The problem for the yeshivos is money. They can very easily stop giving charedim money.

Hence

The problem started since the yeshivos and people became desperate and began relying on the government for financial support.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #159 on: March 12, 2014, 03:26:38 PM »
They already cut off almost the entire money.
The protests weren't on that. 90% is gone already.