Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[PlatinumGuy]

Ok, so what you're advocating is that only poor people, or people who want to go into underpaid professions should go to the army, while rich people with good educations should not?
Why don't we also institute a payment system where rich parents can pay into the system (hey, more govt revenue!) to have their kids not be drafted!
Only the poor should die for their country.
Yep, that seems really fair to me.

Switzerland has a lifetime higher income tax for draft exempts 

[MoGro17]

Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.

P.S. I know my comment makes it sound like its all about the money. It's not. While money plays a significant role, I'm just as concerned about the bitul torah and the wasted time/energy/productivity.

[Ergel]

Switzerland has a lifetime higher income tax for draft exempts 

That only matters if you are paying income taxes

[PlatinumGuy]

That only matters if you are paying income taxes

haha

Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.

I was talking about non frum people who don't seem to have such a hard time getting out

[MoGro17]

I was talking about non frum people who don't seem to have such a hard time getting out

Excellent point.
There is no question that the current enforcement system leaves much to be desired.

[PlatinumGuy]

Excellent point.
There is no question that the current enforcement system leaves much to be desired.

Perhaps because they don't really need everyone?

[Achas Veachas]

Excellent point.
There is no question that the current enforcement system leaves much to be desired.

You can't really force someone who doesn't want to serve to serve, he'll make a real lousy soldier and lower the general morale.

[aygart]

Did you forget #sarcasm?

NOOOOO!!! Do you have any research or numbers to back up your ASSUMPTION?

[Ergel]

NOOOOO!!! Do you have any research or numbers to back up your ASSUMPTION?

From a simple Google search. I'm sure there are more scientific sources

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/22/AR2008012203326.html

Singled out by the Pentagon for intense recruitment drives are urban centers such as Los Angeles and New York. The latter, in which low-income students account for 51% of all high school enrollment and where 71% are black or Latino, contains three of the nation’s top 32 counties for Army enlistment. In Los Angeles, 91% of the students are non-white and 75% are low-income.
And the Coalition Against Militarism in Our Schools says the 30 JROTC programs in Los Angeles Unified School District (with 4,754 students) are “Located in the most economically depressed communities of the city.”
African-Americans make up 16% of the civilian population of military age but 22% of the Army’s enlisted personnel, the ACLU notes. It charges bluntly: “The U.S. military’s practice of targeting low-income youth and students of color in combination with exaggerated promises of financial rewards for enlistment, undermines the voluntariness of their enlistment…”

[ariIs]

Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.

+1

[aygart]

From a simple Google search. I'm sure there are more scientific sources

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/22/AR2008012203326.html

Singled out by the Pentagon for intense recruitment drives are urban centers such as Los Angeles and New York. The latter, in which low-income students account for 51% of all high school enrollment and where 71% are black or Latino, contains three of the nation’s top 32 counties for Army enlistment. In Los Angeles, 91% of the students are non-white and 75% are low-income.
And the Coalition Against Militarism in Our Schools says the 30 JROTC programs in Los Angeles Unified School District (with 4,754 students) are “Located in the most economically depressed communities of the city.”
African-Americans make up 16% of the civilian population of military age but 22% of the Army’s enlisted personnel, the ACLU notes. It charges bluntly: “The U.S. military’s practice of targeting low-income youth and students of color in combination with exaggerated promises of financial rewards for enlistment, undermines the voluntariness of their enlistment…”

You didn't search well enough. See page 19 of the military's demographics report. 93% have some college experience. None of what you quoted shows anything about income class in the actual military. This report using scientific methodology, rather that anecdotes intended to advance an opinion shows that the exact opposite is true. Of course, take the source with a grain of salt.

[PlatinumGuy]

You didn't search well enough. See page 19 of the military's demographics report. 93% have some college experience.

That's cuz the army pays for it

[aygart]

That wouldn't get them the high school diploma. The racial numbers are wrong as well according to page 51. Education is discussed ingreater depth on page 66.

[PlatinumGuy]

That wouldn't get them the high school diploma. The racial numbers are wrong as well according to page 51. Education is discussed ingreater depth on page 66.

Isn't HS diploma a perquisite?

[aygart]

It seems there are some who do not have one, and this was a major premise of the WP article.

[aygart]

This bar chart from he left wing NPP also belies that myth.

P.S. They are the source of the WP!

[good sam]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/13/world/middleeast/israel-restricts-exemptions-from-military-service.html?_r=0

[Moshe123]

The law is a joke for the precise reason that they can't enforce it without a civil war.
It will either be repealed or won't be enforced.

[PlatinumGuy]

The law is a joke for the precise reason that they can't enforce it without a civil war.
It will either be repealed or won't be enforced.

The problem for the yeshivos is money. They can very easily stop giving charedim money.

Hence

The problem started since the yeshivos and people became desperate and began relying on the government for financial support.

[Moshe123]

They already cut off almost the entire money.
The protests weren't on that. 90% is gone already.