Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[ExGingi]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/25/middleeast/israel-orthodox-military-high-court-intl/index.html

ירידה זו - צורך עליה, עד שכל זה הוא כדאי!

[dovy2]

with elections around the corner..
has the time finally arrived for charedi parties to realize that to save the yeshivas their only option is to join together for a technical voting block? shas and gimmel together is at least 18, and if otzma yehudit joins, another 8 or so

[ExGingi]

with elections around the corner..
has the time finally arrived for charedi parties to realize that to save the yeshivas their only option is to join together for a technical voting block? shas and gimmel together is at least 18, and if otzma yehudit joins, another 8 or so

Around the corner?

Unfortunately if history is any indication, they won't form a technical bloc.

And if the do form one, what should they do? Give in to the left that hands them a Carte Blanche for all their "demands" as long as they form a coalition that wants to uproot Yiddishkeit from the masses?

Unfortunately, the Charedi politicians don't seem to have enough foresight to help כלל ישראל, and more More focused on their own narrow circle.

https://he.chabad.org/dailystudy/hayomyom.asp?tdate=6/24/2024




 

[EliJelly]

with elections around the corner..
has the time finally arrived for charedi parties to realize that to save the yeshivas their only option is to join together for a technical voting block? shas and gimmel together is at least 18, and if otzma yehudit joins, another 8 or so

Or maybe it's time to abandon having their own parties and let the larger national ones compete for their vote. Lapid and Gantz will try to get their vote too.

[dovy2]

Unfortunately, the Charedi politicians don't seem to have enough foresight to help כלל ישראל, and more More focused on their own narrow circle.

That's my point - davka now their own circle is threatened.

If the new "right-wing" alliance happens, chances of charedim getting into the gvmt are slim, and any chances of fixing the army or yeshivas funding situation are gone

[aygart]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-26/ty-article/.premium/israels-top-court-may-have-paved-the-way-for-the-new-haredi-jew-if-not-a-new-government/00000190-5141-de50-af9b-7fed1c6c0000

If his predictions pan out the ones who it may be scariest for are him and his ilk

[Just A Jew]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-26/ty-article/.premium/israels-top-court-may-have-paved-the-way-for-the-new-haredi-jew-if-not-a-new-government/00000190-5141-de50-af9b-7fed1c6c0000

If his predictions pan out the ones who it may be scariest for are him and his ilk

What's his history? He sounds like he grew up frum. There's a special kind of disdain in his writing.

[yfr bachur]

the following is my analyses, not my opinion on what should happen
Much of the response of the Non-charedi segments of the population to the BaGatz decision is rose-glasses at best, ignorant at worst.
Most of the Charedi world will do the same thing to the draft notices, that the Yishuv Hayashan (Eida Chareidis, Stamar, Etz...) have been doing for years. Ignore them all.
The only reason that they were showing up in the first place to the draft boards was that at the end of the day, they got a deferment, and eventually an exemption. It was pragmatism, not recognition.
Now that that doesn't exist, there's no reason to pay any attention. (This doesn't mean that the kanoim were right the entire time, rather circumstances change)
In some ways, it will do good things in ruchnius for the society.
That's the end of bachurim and young avreichim taking vacations in Chul. (Can't leave the country if you are a deserter).
There is no longer a need for imaginary yeshivos for weaker talmidim, just to get an exemption while they are otherwise leading productive working lives. (True, there were those that this maintained the connection, but for others it is better to move on and call one self a koveh itim, rather than a ben yeshiva).
In other ways it will be bad.

True, there will be a percentage of those who were on the fence (weaker sfaradim, some of the so-called Charedi Hachadash, certain more anglo olim...) who will now do some sort of national service, whether in the army or sherut leumi, but nowhere near the 25% that the army is predicting will comply with draft notices.

It is truly unknown what the short to medium term macro economic ramifications of ending the current financial arrangements will be.
Will there be a major uptick in chareidi defaults on mortgages? what will that do to the wider banking system?
Will more people (men) enter or (women) leave the workforce due to ending the daycare subsidies?
How will the chareidi focused business react to less fluidity in the financial pool?

[Moshe123]

the following is my analyses, not my opinion on what should happen
Much of the response of the Non-charedi segments of the population to the BaGatz decision is rose-glasses at best, ignorant at worst.
Most of the Charedi world will do the same thing to the draft notices, that the Yishuv Hayashan (Eida Chareidis, Stamar, Etz...) have been doing for years. Ignore them all.
The only reason that they were showing up in the first place to the draft boards was that at the end of the day, they got a deferment, and eventually an exemption. It was pragmatism, not recognition.
Now that that doesn't exist, there's no reason to pay any attention. (This doesn't mean that the kanoim were right the entire time, rather circumstances change)
In some ways, it will do good things in ruchnius for the society.
That's the end of bachurim and young avreichim taking vacations in Chul. (Can't leave the country if you are a deserter).
There is no longer a need for imaginary yeshivos for weaker talmidim, just to get an exemption while they are otherwise leading productive working lives. (True, there were those that this maintained the connection, but for others it is better to move on and call one self a koveh itim, rather than a ben yeshiva).
In other ways it will be bad.

True, there will be a percentage of those who were on the fence (weaker sfaradim, some of the so-called Charedi Hachadash, certain more anglo olim...) who will now do some sort of national service, whether in the army or sherut leumi, but nowhere near the 25% that the army is predicting will comply with draft notices.

It is truly unknown what the short to medium term macro economic ramifications of ending the current financial arrangements will be.
Will there be a major uptick in chareidi defaults on mortgages? what will that do to the wider banking system?
Will more people (men) enter or (women) leave the workforce due to ending the daycare subsidies?
How will the chareidi focused business react to less fluidity in the financial pool?

Americans will just send more money to yeshivos. We send a lot, but would have sent more without all the government funding. It's kind of supplemental now.
Just like all kanoim mosdos survive because that's the setup. Nothing will change.

[dovy2]

Americans will just send more money to yeshivos. We send a lot, but would have sent more without all the government funding. It's kind of supplemental now.
Just like all kanoim mosdos survive because that's the setup. Nothing will change.

like it was before the creation of the state. Most support came from chul. that's how they survived (and perhaps that's how its supposed to be in Galus)

[yfr bachur]

Americans will just send more money to yeshivos. We send a lot, but would have sent more without all the government funding. It's kind of supplemental now.
Just like all kanoim mosdos survive because that's the setup. Nothing will change.

The AG is demanding ending much more than just ending the suport of yeshivos.
She is basicaly demanding to make those charedi jews who don't serve ineligible for almost all programs that aid lower income people. No municiple property tax breaks, no subsidised daycare, child support...

[Moshe Green]

The AG is demanding ending much more than just ending the suport of yeshivos.
She is basicaly demanding to make those charedi jews who don't serve ineligible for almost all programs that aid lower income people. No municiple property tax breaks, no subsidised daycare, child support...

And then they'll try to cancel "them Hareidim" from voting.

[LongTimeLurker]

And then they'll try to cancel "them Hareidim" from voting.

This is a much larger philosophical argument about who gets the franchise, but you can't spend a lifetime shouting about the state and the zionists and then bristle about taking away the vote.

The AG is demanding ending much more than just ending the suport of yeshivos.
She is basicaly demanding to make those charedi jews who don't serve ineligible for almost all programs that aid lower income people. No municiple property tax breaks, no subsidised daycare, child support...

Not all haredim to be clear , only male aged haredim who are now required for army service. 

Also the municipal (arnona) is not on the chopping block, as that has always income based and not tied to anything. I for one would love that it job based as well (i.e. if you choose not to work and therefore you income is low you get the discount). Mainly the big thing is the subsidized meonot and I am not familiar enough with the law and who is eligible.

[aygart]

This is a much larger philosophical argument about who gets the franchise, but you can't spend a lifetime shouting about the state and the zionists and then bristle about taking away the vote.

Why in the world not? Why should someone need to support the government in order to be allowed to vote?

[notyettaken]

Why in the world not? Why should someone need to support the government in order to be allowed to vote?

Because they should take it all the way and overthrow the government they disapprove of (there may be some local tribes willing to help)

/s

[PlatinumGuy]

Why in the world not? Why should someone need to support the government in order to be allowed to vote?

The argument is that only those who accept the sovereignty of the government can choose it

[Jellybelly]

Has anyone made the correlation between all of this and the heating up of the North?

Seems like some people quickly forget the lesson of 10/7

[aygart]

The argument is that only those who accept the sovereignty of the government can choose it

Which is a dictatorial argument.

[Definitions2]

Which is a dictatorial argument.

I'm assuming you'd agree a non citizen shouldn't be able to vote.
What's the distinction between that and this? Or actually what does "spend a lifetime shouting about the state and the zionists" mean?

[aygart]

I'm assuming you'd agree a non citizen shouldn't be able to vote.
What's the distinction between that and this? Or actually what does "spend a lifetime shouting about the state and the zionists" mean?

They are citizens and pay taxes hold Israeli passports etc.