Poll

Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

Yes
10 (18.5%)
No
27 (50%)
Not the Army but some form of service
7 (13%)
It's complicated
7 (13%)
I don't have an opinion
3 (5.6%)

Total Members Voted: 54

Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 69547 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #260 on: July 09, 2024, 09:11:37 AM »
תפח רוחן של מחשבי קיצין
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Chester7

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #261 on: July 09, 2024, 09:53:00 AM »
The chareidim are waiting for the medina to collapse. Both the Brisker Rav zt'l and the Chazon Ish zt'l said that the medina will last only a certain number of years. Then it will be controlled by a foreign entity for a period up to 9 months, as Moshiach cannot take over from the Israeli gov't. Also, people think that this conflict is a mathematical equation - there is absolutely no political solution here. Only way is teshuva. There is different kochas in the world,  Yisrael, Yishmael and Edom. Ever time somebody r'l does an aveira, it gives kochas to Yishmael.  If the yidden did teshuva, and the yidden in Eretz Yisroel would become an am kadosh - then there will be 100% peace.

Israel is surrounded by 500 million Arabs, Iran is running a proxy war, and they have estimated 200k of missiles, and you all see what's happening in the north now - and the situation is about to explode. As much as I want Ukraine to win against Russia, sooner or later Ukraine is going to run out of weapons, and will lose the war. (And prior to the Ukrainian conflict, it was written hundreds of years ago, that the kaiser from Moscow will invade Kyiv, and which countries will align themselves with Russia, etc.  Hundreds of predictions already came true. The Chareidi world has a mesorah from the previous gedolim, ie Vilna Gaon, R' Moshe Dovid Valli (talmid of Ramchal), etc., of what will happen in the future.

Sooner or later, the medina will also run out of weapons, (doesn't look like they will take the Samson option) - and they are now in a rush to pullout of Gaza, as they are reporting that they need to conserve their weapons for the upcoming war with Lebanon.

Hashem is running the show, hashem is the one that makes wars, and before Moshiach comes, all the Avoda Zorahs of the world have to be destroyed.  Hashem has to make a melech kasha k'haman to get klal yisroel to do teshuva. Hashem has to show that we cannot rely on the army,  and hashem made this war happen - to make kochi V'otzem yodi to become botul . Our salvation will come only when we realize that we can only rely on our father in heaven, nothing else.

Then hashem will reveal himself to the world, and then the עשר המכות will look like child's play.
The question I always have with this is then do you believe moshiach can come right now? Because that's one of the basics.

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #262 on: July 09, 2024, 09:58:23 AM »
The chareidim are waiting for the medina to collapse. Both the Brisker Rav zt'l and the Chazon Ish zt'l said that the medina will last only a certain number of years. Then it will be controlled by a foreign entity for a period up to 9 months, as Moshiach cannot take over from the Israeli gov't. Also, people think that this conflict is a mathematical equation - there is absolutely no political solution here. Only way is teshuva. There is different kochas in the world,  Yisrael, Yishmael and Edom. Ever time somebody r'l does an aveira, it gives kochas to Yishmael.  If the yidden did teshuva, and the yidden in Eretz Yisroel would become an am kadosh - then there will be 100% peace.

Israel is surrounded by 500 million Arabs, Iran is running a proxy war, and they have estimated 200k of missiles, and you all see what's happening in the north now - and the situation is about to explode. As much as I want Ukraine to win against Russia, sooner or later Ukraine is going to run out of weapons, and will lose the war. (And prior to the Ukrainian conflict, it was written hundreds of years ago, that the kaiser from Moscow will invade Kyiv, and which countries will align themselves with Russia, etc.  Hundreds of predictions already came true. The Chareidi world has a mesorah from the previous gedolim, ie Vilna Gaon, R' Moshe Dovid Valli (talmid of Ramchal), etc., of what will happen in the future.

Sooner or later, the medina will also run out of weapons, (doesn't look like they will take the Samson option) - and they are now in a rush to pullout of Gaza, as they are reporting that they need to conserve their weapons for the upcoming war with Lebanon.

Hashem is running the show, hashem is the one that makes wars, and before Moshiach comes, all the Avoda Zorahs of the world have to be destroyed.  Hashem has to make a melech kasha k'haman to get klal yisroel to do teshuva. Hashem has to show that we cannot rely on the army,  and hashem made this war happen - to make kochi V'otzem yodi to become botul . Our salvation will come only when we realize that we can only rely on our father in heaven, nothing else.

Then hashem will reveal himself to the world, and then the עשר המכות will look like child's play.

Wow, we get nevua on an internet forum, impressive.

Also if you haven't made Aliya yet, please don't. It bugs me that I and my friends have to put our lives in danger for this shtus.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #263 on: July 09, 2024, 10:06:53 AM »
The question I always have with this is then do you believe moshiach can come right now? Because that's one of the basics.
Not necessarily that he can come this second, just as he cannot come on shabbos.

Offline Chester7

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #264 on: July 09, 2024, 10:31:51 AM »
Not necessarily that he can come this second, just as he cannot come on shabbos.
I hear the point. Though seems a little different that he can not come on one day vs. nine months.

Offline yelped

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #265 on: July 09, 2024, 10:51:14 AM »
The arguments about the state of the army and if a Chareidi can join is one thing, but to be toileh with the views on the state should not be related. At the end of the day, the question is, is it necessary for me to join the army to save Jewish lives and can we make it compatible with Judaism. How we got into this situation is irrelevant. Unless you want to be the guy who refuses to plug a hole that someone else made in his cabin in the ship.

Online EliJelly

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #266 on: July 09, 2024, 11:10:00 AM »
The chareidim are waiting for the medina to collapse. Both the Brisker Rav zt'l and the Chazon Ish zt'l said that the medina will last only a certain number of years. Then it will be controlled by a foreign entity for a period up to 9 months, as Moshiach cannot take over from the Israeli gov't.

Their statements have grown a long beard, they never gave such precise prophesies. The sentiments of it is true though about their daas torah on the matter.

Offline Saulius

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #267 on: July 09, 2024, 02:53:11 PM »
Their statements have grown a long beard, they never gave such precise prophesies. The sentiments of it is true though about their daas torah on the matter.

https://www.kikar.co.il/yeshiva-world/421927

Online EliJelly

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #268 on: July 09, 2024, 03:09:24 PM »
https://www.kikar.co.il/yeshiva-world/421927

All I see there is the Chazon Ish's original statement, not the add ons.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #269 on: July 09, 2024, 03:34:02 PM »
The arguments about the state of the army and if a Chareidi can join is one thing, but to be toileh with the views on the state should not be related. At the end of the day, the question is, is it necessary for me to join the army to save Jewish lives and can we make it compatible with Judaism. How we got into this situation is irrelevant. Unless you want to be the guy who refuses to plug a hole that someone else made in his cabin in the ship.
They are inexorably tied together. Those that do not believe in the state, and believe it is inherently evil and responsible for this whole mess, obviously don’t buy a “share the burden” equally argument.

Online EliJelly

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #270 on: July 09, 2024, 03:36:51 PM »
They are inexorably tied together. Those that do not believe in the state, and believe it is inherently evil and responsible for this whole mess, obviously don’t buy a “share the burden” equally argument.

There are those who can make that claim but not the ones who're trying to be an integral part of it and reaping all the benefits they can. Instead of fighting for funding to be reinstated they can definitely go with the more logical approach and adopt your mehalech. ;) 

Offline Saulius

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #271 on: July 09, 2024, 04:13:19 PM »
There are those who can make that claim but not the ones who're trying to be an integral part of it and reaping all the benefits they can. Instead of fighting for funding to be reinstated they can definitely go with the more logical approach and adopt your mehalech. ;)

Well they say that the medina went beyond it's 70 year expiration date, because of the zchus of their funding for Torah, yeshivos/kollelim.  Now, that this funding is being discontinued, they will not have that zchus any more. Some of the gedolei hador went to the US few weeks ago to raise the 107 million, so they do not need the medina's money.

Online EliJelly

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #272 on: July 09, 2024, 04:20:47 PM »
Well they say that the medina went beyond it's 70 year expiration date, because of the zchus of their funding for Torah, yeshivos/kollelim.  Now, that this funding is being discontinued, they will not have that zchus any more. Some of the gedolei hador went to the US few weeks ago to raise the 107 million, so they do not need the medina's money.

ביבוש קצירה תישברנה

Offline yelped

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #273 on: July 09, 2024, 04:28:29 PM »
They are inexorably tied together. Those that do not believe in the state, and believe it is inherently evil and responsible for this whole mess, obviously don’t buy a “share the burden” equally argument.
Surprised you missed the point.

Offline imayid2

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Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #275 on: July 10, 2024, 01:49:13 AM »
Well they say that the medina went beyond it's 70 year expiration date, because of the zchus of their funding for Torah, yeshivos/kollelim.  Now, that this funding is being discontinued, they will not have that zchus any more. Some of the gedolei hador went to the US few weeks ago to raise the 107 million, so they do not need the medina's money.

What about the medinas roads? Health care system? Fire trucks?
All of those yeshivot are connected to the medinas electric grid (except on shabbos and let me tell you those generators are noooisy), they call the medinas police and ambulance when they need it

Offline AsherO

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #276 on: July 10, 2024, 02:41:27 AM »
Well they say that the medina went beyond it's 70 year expiration date, because of the zchus of their funding for Torah, yeshivos/kollelim.  Now, that this funding is being discontinued, they will not have that zchus any more. Some of the gedolei hador went to the US few weeks ago to raise the 107 million, so they do not need the medina's money.

Sounds like a serious security risk to learn Torah in a medina that’s past its expiration and lost its zechus :P
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Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #277 on: July 10, 2024, 03:41:45 AM »
What about the medinas roads? Health care system? Fire trucks?
All of those yeshivot are connected to the medinas electric grid (except on shabbos and let me tell you those generators are noooisy), they call the medinas police and ambulance when they need it

The charedi response would probably say that there's a gemara that addresses this exact point.
Forget where it is or who the amoraim are, but the gist of the discussion there is whether Rome has any zchusim for creating the infrastructure that benefitted the Yidden.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #278 on: July 10, 2024, 04:25:13 AM »
The charedi response would probably say that there's a gemara that addresses this exact point.
Forget where it is or who the amoraim are, but the gist of the discussion there is whether Rome has any zchusim for creating the infrastructure that benefitted the Yidden.
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Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #279 on: July 10, 2024, 04:32:07 AM »