Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[Saulius]

Rabbi Brog said in a shiur quoting the Brisker Rov, and the haftorah, that from everything that the Zionists built there will not remain anything.  Before moshiach comes, everything that they built will be destroyed. 

https://torahanytime.com/lectures/303246 -- At 26 minutes

[yfr bachur]

Rabbi Brog said in a shiur quoting the Brisker Rov, and the haftorah, that from everything that the Zionists built there will not remain anything.  Before moshiach comes, everything that they built will be destroyed. 

https://torahanytime.com/lectures/303246 -- At 26 minutes

Is that literal or figurative?
Also anything anti zionist blamed on sources pre-Chovivie Tzion is supposition, not a primary mekor.
I would venture that the talmidie chachamim in Merkaz Harav or Har Hamor or... would interpret those psukim differently...

[AsherO]

Rabbi Brog said in a shiur quoting the Brisker Rov, and the haftorah, that from everything that the Zionists built there will not remain anything.  Before moshiach comes, everything that they built will be destroyed. 

https://torahanytime.com/lectures/303246 -- At 26 minutes

He doesn’t cite a source and I wonder what the original quote looks like, though it is very possible for the BR to have said exactly that.

[jye]

Rabbi Brog said in a shiur quoting the Brisker Rov, and the haftorah, that from everything that the Zionists built there will not remain anything.  Before moshiach comes, everything that they built will be destroyed. 

https://torahanytime.com/lectures/303246 -- At 26 minutes

Does that also include all the yeshivos other than Brisk who use Zionist funding to build and maintain their institutions?

[Saulius]

Does that also include all the yeshivos other than Brisk who use Zionist funding to build and maintain their institutions?

Last night's shiur from R' Brog is titled "Taking money from the Israeli gov't" - https://torahanytime.com/lectures/309349

It's not only Brisk, but the entire Eida Chareidis doesn't take for their institutions.

And even then - the money has to be kosher: https://matzav.com/rav-avrohom-yehoshua-soloveitchiks-red-line/

[Saulius]

Last year, there was a protest in Yerushulayim against those taking money from the Israeli gov't:

I have the recordings of the speeches in yiddish:

https://soundcloud.com/saulius-s-253607241/gelt-1
https://soundcloud.com/saulius-s-253607241/gelt-2

[aygart]

Last year, there was a protest in Yerushulayim against those taking money from the Israeli gov't:

I have the recordings of the speeches in yiddish:

https://soundcloud.com/saulius-s-253607241/gelt-1
https://soundcloud.com/saulius-s-253607241/gelt-2

There were those who protested against the Chazon Ish while he was alive too.

[aygart]

Rabbi Brog said in a shiur quoting the Brisker Rov, and the haftorah, that from everything that the Zionists built there will not remain anything.  Before moshiach comes, everything that they built will be destroyed. 

https://torahanytime.com/lectures/303246 -- At 26 minutes

Last night's shiur from R' Brog is titled "Taking money from the Israeli gov't" - https://torahanytime.com/lectures/309349

It's not only Brisk, but the entire Eida Chareidis doesn't take for their institutions.

And even then - the money has to be kosher: https://matzav.com/rav-avrohom-yehoshua-soloveitchiks-red-line/

We all know that this was the basic mehalech of the Brisker Rov and Satmar, but there were many who disagreed.

[yfr bachur]

Last year, there was a protest in Yerushulayim against those taking money from the Israeli gov't:

We all know that this was the basic mehalech of the Brisker Rov and Satmar, but there were many who disagreed.

Even within the Peleg, this is a point of Machlokes.
Peleg schools have had nasty splits over it.

[jye]

Last night's shiur from R' Brog is titled "Taking money from the Israeli gov't" - https://torahanytime.com/lectures/309349

It's not only Brisk, but the entire Eida Chareidis doesn't take for their institutions.

And even then - the money has to be kosher: https://matzav.com/rav-avrohom-yehoshua-soloveitchiks-red-line/

What if Moshiach is from the ranks of the government money takers, heaven forbid? After all most of the recognized gedolim of the Olam Hatorah in E”Y were…

[yelped]

There are a lot of elements that were involved in the creation of the modern State of Israel. I find it bizarre to be it all toileh in Reshuim Gemirim that you can't be nehene from. In general, it is not common to find a Jewish Rasha that can't have a tikkun and that you can't be nehene from, so comparisons to Romans are off to me.

[yfr bachur]

There are a lot of elements that were involved in the creation of the modern State of Israel. I find it bizarre to be it all toileh in Reshuim Gemirim that you can't be nehene from.

Gevad(ic?)! You're not Satmar! 

[AsherO]

There are a lot of elements that were involved in the creation of the modern State of Israel. I find it bizarre to be it all toileh in Reshuim Gemirim that you can't be nehene from. In general, it is not common to find a Jewish Rasha that can't have a tikkun and that you can't be nehene from, so comparisons to Romans are off to me.

There are issues comparing Jews to Romans, but the quote from the Gemara has parallels in that you can see two sides of it:
- They did apparently good things
- They did those apparently good things for selfish/not good reasons.

[yelped]

There are issues comparing Jews to Romans, but the quote from the Gemara has parallels in that you can see two sides of it:
- They did apparently good things
- They did those apparently good things for selfish/not good reasons.

Yes, but that is a very uneducated way to compare things that are totally unrelated. You know glass is shiny and transparent, too, it still has no comparison to a diamond.

[yfr bachur]

Well they say that the medina went beyond it's 70 year expiration date, because of the zchus of their funding for Torah, yeshivos/kollelim.  Now, that this funding is being discontinued, they will not have that zchus any more. Some of the gedolei hador went to the US few weeks ago to raise the 107 million, so they do not need the medina's money.

What about the medinas roads? Health care system? Fire trucks?
All of those yeshivot are connected to the medinas electric grid (except on shabbos and let me tell you those generators are noooisy), they call the medinas police and ambulance when they need it

The charedi response would probably say that there's a gemara that addresses this exact point.
Forget where it is or who the amoraim are, but the gist of the discussion there is whether Rome has any zchusim for creating the infrastructure that benefitted the Yidden.

Not sure why you think anyone said anything about an isur to be nehene...
(Not saying that this is my belief on the subject)

[Saulius]

Sefardi Roshei yeshiva issue strongly worded letter instructing yeshiva bochurim to not show up at all at recruitment centers and to ignore the letters and to bear the financial burden and to even to be jailed for it.

[aygart]

Sefardi Roshei yeshiva

They have their experiences with the Israeli government

[Saulius]

Rav Dov Landau: "A state that mobilizes the members of the Yeshiva has no right to exist,", "in a time of war they want to take away the right of Torah learners - this is complete suicide." "... The army is at war against us."

https://www.kikar.co.il/haredim-news/sgexf0

[Ergel]

I live in the Charedi community, but I really have not heard anyone deal with the issues straight on
Is the real reason because of shmad? Because the army doesn't want you? Because תורה is מגנא ומצלא? What if the charedi community was 80% of the country? Would we still not serve? Would we want to give the country back to the Arabs who would faithfully take care of us?
Any time you push people on this, it always comes back to, well the Chazon Ish said not to serve and we aren't big enough to make a decision like this. That really doesn't do it for me

If we truly believe (and I hope we do) that תורה and תפילה is what will save us, then why don't we have round the clock emergency sedarim to protect the country? Why is it that since the bombs have stopped, if you walked around the charedi community you wouldn't know we were in the middle of a war? Why on the Sunday two weeks ago after 8 yeshiva bochurim (not chilonim - but bnei torah!!!) were killed, did no one in the community care? Everyone kept asking me what was wrong because they had no clue.

See Gemara below that דוד only allowed כשרים to serve in the army

[imayid2]

Stam interesting, 1948