Poll

Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

Yes
10 (17.5%)
No
29 (50.9%)
Not the Army but some form of service
8 (14%)
It's complicated
7 (12.3%)
I don't have an opinion
3 (5.3%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 71046 times)

Online EliJelly

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #300 on: July 10, 2024, 03:32:28 PM »

See Gemara below that דוד only allowed כשרים to serve in the army


Well, I don't envision Israel as a state will anytime soon resemble anything remotely close to the universe of מלכות בית דוד lehavdil, it was established to be the polar opposite of it, so we'll wait for Moshiach with applying such dreams. In the meantime, comparing it to Czar Nikolies army will do more justice.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 03:35:51 PM by EliJelly »

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #301 on: July 10, 2024, 03:50:41 PM »
I live in the Charedi community, but I really have not heard anyone deal with the issues straight on
Is the real reason because of shmad? Because the army doesn't want you? Because תורה is מגנא ומצלא? What if the charedi community was 80% of the country? Would we still not serve? Would we want to give the country back to the Arabs who would faithfully take care of us?
Any time you push people on this, it always comes back to, well the Chazon Ish said not to serve and we aren't big enough to make a decision like this. That really doesn't do it for me

If we truly believe (and I hope we do) that תורה and תפילה is what will save us, then why don't we have round the clock emergency sedarim to protect the country? Why is it that since the bombs have stopped, if you walked around the charedi community you wouldn't know we were in the middle of a war? Why on the Sunday two weeks ago after 8 yeshiva bochurim (not chilonim - but bnei torah!!!) were killed, did no one in the community care? Everyone kept asking me what was wrong because they had no clue.

This. +1million.
Why is it that of all the sectoral charedi newspapers published in EY a single solitary one even publishes the NAMES of soldiers killed in Gaza? Publishes the names of the hostages for tehilim?
Why is it that the charedi tzibur chooses to willfully stuff its ears and harden its hearts to the suffering of fellow acheinu bnie yisroel. True, maybe they say a few kapitelach tehilim after davening - but almost zero Nosei B'ohl awareness about the families without fathers for weeks at a time, the pregnant women without husbands, the women in shana rishona who are alone, The difficulties of the farmers and yishuvnikim all over the country, especially on the northern border.
No, it's business, as usual. Maybe a short debate if it safe to go to Rosh HAnikra or Meron... nothing more...

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #302 on: July 10, 2024, 04:10:00 PM »
This. +1million.
Why is it that of all the sectoral charedi newspapers published in EY a single solitary one even publishes the NAMES of soldiers killed in Gaza? Publishes the names of the hostages for tehilim?
Why is it that the charedi tzibur chooses to willfully stuff its ears and harden its hearts to the suffering of fellow acheinu bnie yisroel. True, maybe they say a few kapitelach tehilim after davening - but almost zero Nosei B'ohl awareness about the families without fathers for weeks at a time, the pregnant women without husbands, the women in shana rishona who are alone, The difficulties of the farmers and yishuvnikim all over the country, especially on the northern border.
No, it's business, as usual. Maybe a short debate if it safe to go to Rosh HAnikra or Meron... nothing more...
Maybe because the army is the Avoda Zara of the Chilonim.
Maybe Cochi V'Oztem Yadi manifests itself the IDF.
Maybe because the Army was the tool of the secular Zionists to make a new Jew.

Of course Chareidim care. They care 100x more than someone who was not raised that Chesed is one of the pillars of the world. But what do you want when the Army is the forces of evil...

Offline Saulius

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #303 on: July 10, 2024, 04:11:51 PM »
Stam interesting, 1948



Absolutely, just we have gedolei hador who we follow. They are the giants of our generation -  They have daas torah, and they have prophetic vision of all what is going to transpire. 
איזהו חכם הרואה את הנולד


We are currently middle of a war, r'l -- and this is the final war before the Geulah/Moshiach. We are in the final moments of golus - and the gedolei hador know that this war is different.  Previous wars, the Israeli army was able to defeat the enemy derech hateva -- but now this war we are not able to win derech hateva.

Look at this headline from the other day: "IDF assesses much of Hamas tunnel network still in ‘good functional state’ – report" https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-assesses-much-of-hamas-tunnel-network-still-in-good-functional-state-report/

We are now in day 278 of the War. Look how many Israeli soldiers got killed r'l. And the Israeli media is not reporting the enormous amount of soldiers in hospitals missing limbs and eyes. We approaching to close to 10,000 injured r'l.

And they haven't rescued one hostage from the Gaza tunnels (the few rescued hostages were luckily kept above ground). 

The gedolei hador have been screaming from before Israel went into Gaza, that the army is not our salvation. Only Torah, Teshuva, Tzedaka, Tefillah. Our enemies have hundreds of thousands of missiles, drones, etc. The enemies are waiting for the army to run out of ammunition and the Israeli army does not have an infinite number of interceptor missiles for the Iron Dome.   The Israeli army may eliminate two million terrorists, but before long, the terrorists will have four million new recruits to replace those who were killed.  Hamas is an ideology, the bnei yishmael - they are brainwashed from the day they are born Itbah Al-Yahud / Khaybar ya Yahood.

A Nazi would not sacrifice to break a finger, that another Jew to be killed, but here the Hamas terrorists do not care to all die and martyr their entire surrounding population all in order that one Jew should get killed.

The gedolim were for decades screaming Hamas, Covid,  Nazis/Holocaust is the same lady with a different dress. It's all Hashem with a stick in his hands, and choosing a different shliach to do it. Violation of the halachos of the Torah, causes a kitrog in the heavens against Klal Yisroel, and when it hits a limit - Klal Yisroel has to pay the price, as we are all responsible.

Hashem is sending us rockets, and instead of taking it as a sign that klal yisrael (and ME included) need to do teshuva -- BUT everybody is busy brainstorming with plans of how to fight back, Kochi V'otzem Yadi. Screaming Never Again! 

When klal yisrael does teshuva, and realizes that there is absolutely nothing to rely on except Hashem.  Hashem is our ONLY salvation - Then Hashem himself will take care of all our enemies in an instant, and bring in the Geulah. But till then, when we put our bitachon on other things - we are causing the delay of the Geulah.
 
אין עוד מלבדו, אין לנו להשען אלא על אבינו שבשמים

איזהו חכם הרואה את הנולד

Offline Saulius

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #304 on: July 10, 2024, 04:29:57 PM »
This. +1million.
Why is it that of all the sectoral charedi newspapers published in EY a single solitary one even publishes the NAMES of soldiers killed in Gaza? Publishes the names of the hostages for tehilim?
Why is it that the charedi tzibur chooses to willfully stuff its ears and harden its hearts to the suffering of fellow acheinu bnie yisroel. True, maybe they say a few kapitelach tehilim after davening - but almost zero Nosei B'ohl awareness about the families without fathers for weeks at a time, the pregnant women without husbands, the women in shana rishona who are alone, The difficulties of the farmers and yishuvnikim all over the country, especially on the northern border.
No, it's business, as usual. Maybe a short debate if it safe to go to Rosh HAnikra or Meron... nothing more...

The gedolei hador are aware of the issues, and it was discussed - and they decided that it was best not to -- as they didn't want to confuse the bochorim - as the bochorim need to know that they are the Ikkur. (this is what I was told). And in the yeshivas, they are all saying at least 3-4 kapitlach tehilim after each tefilla - posuk by posuk - it's very time consuming. 
 
And the rosh yeshivas have been steadfast - not allowing bochorim to take an off-shabbos. Right after Shemini Atzeres, remember, they cancelled ben hazmanim. The yeshivas went back to full schedule immediately right away in Eretz Yisroel.  One of the famous rosh yeshivas told his bochorim in the beginning of the War, if you take a shabbos off, and a soldier gets killed - you will be held responsible.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #305 on: July 10, 2024, 04:39:53 PM »
This. +1million.
Why is it that of all the sectoral charedi newspapers published in EY a single solitary one even publishes the NAMES of soldiers killed in Gaza? Publishes the names of the hostages for tehilim?
Why is it that the charedi tzibur chooses to willfully stuff its ears and harden its hearts to the suffering of fellow acheinu bnie yisroel. True, maybe they say a few kapitelach tehilim after davening - but almost zero Nosei B'ohl awareness about the families without fathers for weeks at a time, the pregnant women without husbands, the women in shana rishona who are alone, The difficulties of the farmers and yishuvnikim all over the country, especially on the northern border.
No, it's business, as usual. Maybe a short debate if it safe to go to Rosh HAnikra or Meron... nothing more...
I think this is a factor:
https://www.theemotionmachine.com/circles-of-empathy-why-we-care-about-people-to-different-degrees/
Quote
We don’t often think about it this way, but empathy is a limited resource. Our “circles of empathy” show us whom we tend to invest this resource in the most.

The truth is: you don’t care about everyone equally. This may seem like plain commonsense to some people – but to others, this can be a frightening and uncomfortable realization.

We often like to believe that we can exercise “universal love” or “universal empathy” toward everyone, without any discrimination or judgment or preference. Every human life is equally valuable to us, and there’s no reason to prefer any one person over any other.

While this sounds like a very nice and utopian view of humanity, it’s not very reflective of how our minds actually work in the real world.

You don’t care about everyone equally – you prefer some people over others. One of the most obvious examples of this is the fact that we often care more about the well-being of our family and friends over that of a completely random stranger.

And if push comes to shove – and you have to choose between saving the life of a family members vs. the life of a random stranger – you’re going to show a clear preference toward your family member. This is natural, right?

And we wouldn’t blame anyone for having that preference, right? Even though that preference is ultimately subjective, and not based on any objective analysis, it is a natural preference. And we don’t fault people for caring more about some people over others in this context.

In this article, I want to lay out a concept called “circles of empathy.” The basic idea is that we do care about some people over others, and there’s nothing wrong with having this preference, as it is completely natural.

Circles of empathy
Here is a rough illustration of how our “circles of empathy” work.
It begins with love for yourself, your family, and your friends, and then extends to bigger groups of people like your neighbors, your coworkers, your community, and your nation:

Naturally you can empathize with anyone if given the chance. Anyone can theoretically become a friend.

Of course it helps if you have met the person. Or at the very least, you can attach an identity to them like a name or a face. Psychologists sometimes call this the “identifiable victim effect.”

Basically, it’s far easier to empathize with people who we can personally identify (with at least a name or a face), rather than if they are some abstraction (like a number or a statistic).

Think about it this way: When you hear about 100 strangers dying from some other part of the world vs. 1000 strangers dying, your empathetic response doesn’t usually become 10x more intense, even though there are 10x as many deaths.

This is one limitation of empathy. Once you start thinking about large groups of people, you’re thinking about something abstract and numerical, not something you can empathize with on any real personal level.

Of course, this doesn’t mean that you can’t care about random people suffering or that you can’t take active measures to help those people. However, it does show us that there are real limitations in your ability to care and empathize with everyone to an equal degree.

Caring about your small corner of the world
Our lives aren’t usually defined by people we’ve never met from parts of the world we’ve never been to. Our lives are defined by the people that are right in front of us on a daily basis.

Our family, our friends, our local community – these are areas in life where our empathy is often strongest, and these are the people whom we tend to care the most about.

We may not often think about it this way, but empathy is a resource. And caring about other people is a resource. And like all resources, you need to choose who you invest it in. And that requires discretion.
When you care about a person in any meaningful way, that takes up physical and mental energy – time, effort, planning, emotional investment, money, etc. And you probably don’t have an infinite amount of these things to give to the world.

People sometimes fall for the existential trap that they want to “save the world,” but they inevitably realize they can’t, and that makes them very depressed and frustrated with everything.

But you don’t have to “save the world” to be a good person and do good things for others. When you understand your “circles of empathy,” it gives you permission to focus on your small corner of the world, and not feel obligated to save everyone or die trying.

You actually have more power to change the world within your small sphere of influence rather than trying to change things which you have much more limited control and understanding of.

Altruism toward strangers
Before you take this article as an argument against being altruistic toward complete strangers, let me clarify a couple things.

First, our “circles of empathy” teaches us that people tend to care more about some people over others (for natural reasons, they are usually people who are a part of your daily life). So you shouldn’t feel bad for having this natural preference, everyone does to some degree.

Second, because it’s easier to empathize with people who you know personally, this is often a better use of your “empathy” and “caring” resources rather than people who you barely know anything about.
Keep in mind, many people don’t have opportunities to be very altruistic toward strangers. They are too busy trying to take care of themselves and the people around them. That is perfectly reasonable for many people, and there’s nothing to feel guilty about there.

However, if you find yourself in a fortunate position where you can dedicate resources toward being altruistic toward strangers, you should look into the concept of effective altruism.

“Effective altruism” is a social movement associated with the ethicist Peter Singer. It tries to apply evidence and reason toward altruistic endeavors, rather than relying solely on feelings and empathy.
One common application of “effective altruism” is to do a lot of research into the organizations you donate your time and money toward. Make sure that these charities are actually reaching the people in need and coming up with solutions.

It’s far-too-common these days to see charities and organizations that end up misusing resources or even pocketing it for themselves.

In the spirit of altruism, it can be tempting to donate a little money toward every charity you come across. A few dollars here, a few dollars there can make you “feel good” about yourself and believe you are contributing and making a difference.

But if you are giving away time and money without proper discretion, and without doing research, you might be wasting a lot of your own time and money that could be spent in more effective ways.
Altruism toward strangers is good, but within reason and using proper discretion

Online aygart

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #306 on: July 10, 2024, 06:15:48 PM »


this is the final war before the Geulah/Moshiach. We are in the final moments of golus -




תפח רוחן של מחשבי קיצין

Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline gozalim

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #307 on: July 10, 2024, 06:47:32 PM »
I live in the Charedi community, but I really have not heard anyone deal with the issues straight on
Is the real reason because of shmad? Because the army doesn't want you? Because תורה is מגנא ומצלא? What if the charedi community was 80% of the country? Would we still not serve? Would we want to give the country back to the Arabs who would faithfully take care of us?
Any time you push people on this, it always comes back to, well the Chazon Ish said not to serve and we aren't big enough to make a decision like this. That really doesn't do it for me

If we truly believe (and I hope we do) that תורה and תפילה is what will save us, then why don't we have round the clock emergency sedarim to protect the country? Why is it that since the bombs have stopped, if you walked around the charedi community you wouldn't know we were in the middle of a war? Why on the Sunday two weeks ago after 8 yeshiva bochurim (not chilonim - but bnei torah!!!) were killed, did no one in the community care? Everyone kept asking me what was wrong because they had no clue.

See Gemara below that דוד only allowed כשרים to serve in the army

they are not mutually exclusive.
those bochurim that are learning, מגינא ומצלא absolutely. and we should (and seems like we do) have added learning due to the situation
that being the case, if we had a nation of 80% תורתם אומנותם I'm certain Hashem would bless our geopolitics and/or technology that we would have the tools to easily protect the nation בדרך הטבע with that manpower.

it is also true, and no less important, that (regardless of hours actually learning) the current iteration of the IDF is in no way safe for the soul of a frum youth, and has no intention of doing the heavy lifting that would take. theyhope to promise some cosmetic changes in the kitchen, but have no even pretense of making root changes to the structure (or bagatz)

Offline Ergel

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #308 on: July 11, 2024, 02:51:12 AM »
they are not mutually exclusive.
those bochurim that are learning, מגינא ומצלא absolutely. and we should (and seems like we do) have added learning due to the situation
I don't see that as a focus more than 2 months after the war...it's business as usual
Quote
that being the case, if we had a nation of 80% תורתם אומנותם I'm certain Hashem would bless our geopolitics and/or technology that we would have the tools to easily protect the nation בדרך הטבע with that manpower.
More so than he did for David Hamelech?

Quote
it is also true, and no less important, that (regardless of hours actually learning) the current iteration of the IDF is in no way safe for the soul of a frum youth, and has no intention of doing the heavy lifting that would take. theyhope to promise some cosmetic changes in the kitchen, but have no even pretense of making root changes to the structure (or bagatz)
If you always assume the other to be evil, then yes, there is no room for honest dialogue
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #309 on: July 11, 2024, 02:51:42 AM »
Maybe because the army is the Avoda Zara of the Chilonim.
Maybe Cochi V'Oztem Yadi manifests itself the IDF.
Maybe because the Army was the tool of the secular Zionists to make a new Jew.

Of course Chareidim care. They care 100x more than someone who was not raised that Chesed is one of the pillars of the world. But what do you want when the Army is the forces of evil...
Of course we care...except we don't


Have you ever considered you are fighting a battle that we won 40 years ago?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #310 on: July 11, 2024, 05:42:27 AM »
The gedolei hador are aware of the issues, and it was discussed - and they decided that it was best not to -- as they didn't want to confuse the bochorim - as the bochorim need to know that they are the Ikkur. (this is what I was told). And in the yeshivas, they are all saying at least 3-4 kapitlach tehilim after each tefilla - posuk by posuk - it's very time consuming. 
Um, if your chinuch can't stand up to a little wind, it's not worth much at all...
And anyway, that a garbage answer.
You can't publish the name of hostages for tehillim for fear that a bachur may get confused? about what exactly, and how?
The simple act of publishing the name of a soldier who was killed will take away from the "Ikurkeit" of a bachur?
And the rosh yeshivas have been steadfast - not allowing bochorim to take an off-shabbos. Right after Shemini Atzeres, remember, they cancelled ben hazmanim. The yeshivas went back to full schedule immediately right away in Eretz Yisroel.
While this may have been true for the first month or so of zman, today it is verifiably false.
One of the famous rosh yeshivas told his bochorim in the beginning of the War, if you take a shabbos off, and a soldier gets killed - you will be held responsible.
Strong enough words do not exist in polite english to express how garbage this is, Hashkaficaly and Chinuch-wise.

Absolutely, just we have gedolei hador who we follow. They are the giants of our generation -  They have daas torah, and they have prophetic vision of all what is going to transpire. 
Wow, that's quite a guzma. Maybe they have Siyata Dishmaya. IF we are zoche to it.
We don't have nevua today. Even those who like to quote what Reb Elchonon heard from the Chofetz Chaim say that the CC was the last person we had who was able to see that way.

We are currently middle of a war, r'l -- and this is the final war before the Geulah/Moshiach. We are in the final moments of golus -
A. Stop. Just stop. How many times in my short 30+ year lifetime have I heard that this right now is the final days before moshiach and this is the beginnings of Gog Umagog... And the Whatever of Russia and the Persians, and dont you know its all written down since the time of sancheirev and the geulas moshiach will come this year bec we said birchas hachama on a tuesday just like the year of yetzias mitzroyim, and it has to be this year because it motzei shmita and the gemara says the ben dovid comes in then, and the world never, ever experienced a quarantine ever, and also Covid is gematria moshiach so he has to becoming next week on monday morning.

B. There is actually a real problem talking this way. It destroys peoples Emuna.
There's a story (I think its in in Tzidkus Stands Forever) about a similar time decades ago when people were getting carried away that He must be coming right now, where non-shomer shabbos yid closed his store and started coming to shul on Shabbos (doing Teshuva), and the Rav went to him and explained to him that Moshiach is most likely not coming right now, but further in the future... when people asked why he told the man that, the Rav said something like "until now, he was not shomer shabbos, but believed in hashem and moshiach and Olam Haba, the risk is that the disappointment from moshiach not coming is liable to destroy his Emuna to the point that he will no longer be a ben Olam Haba.
If you look historically - many times when there was a time that the Olam said that he is coming right now... It was followed by a national depression/yiush
Rav Aharon Lopiansky wrote a long piece pretty early in Corona explaining this.
Achake Lo Bechol Yom Sheavo - theres a question where the comma goes. Is it "Every day, I await his coming, whenever it may be" or "I await that he maybe coming each and every day". In any case, it's not "everyday, I know he must becoming that very day"

and the gedolei hador know that this war is different.  Previous wars, the Israeli army was able to defeat the enemy derech hateva -- but now this war we are not able to win derech hateva.
Again, the Gedolim don't KNOW. They can give us their hasharah, shikul hadass... it's not knowledge
Also, the massive historical ignorance shown of the undeniable me'al derech hateva of previous Israeli wars... Like all of them. You know that the only reason the Syrians did not massacre Bnei Brak on Yom Kippur of '73, is that because the borders were so poorly defended and they outmarched their initial plans of attack exponentially and had a clear road to more or less anywhere they wanted to go in the country, their commanders suspected a trap and stopped their advance? that there was a tank battle in the golan where the israelis were outnumbered 10-1 and defended their positions for days, until they literaly were at the breaking point, and then syrians called off the offensive, when if they would have gone on just a bit more they would have broken the Israeli lines...
If you don't believe that the 6 day War was me'al derech hateva... Well then, you believe in kochi v'otzem yodi more than many secular Israelis.
And what do you mean "win"? by the way you seem to define it The Israelis haven't won any wars aside from 48 and 67.

The gedolei hador have been screaming from before Israel went into Gaza, that the army is not our salvation. Only Torah, Teshuva, Tzedaka, Tefillah. Our enemies have hundreds of thousands of missiles, drones, etc. The enemies are waiting for the army to run out of ammunition and the Israeli army does not have an infinite number of interceptor missiles for the Iron Dome.   The Israeli army may eliminate two million terrorists, but before long, the terrorists will have four million new recruits to replace those who were killed.  Hamas is an ideology, the bnei yishmael - they are brainwashed from the day they are born Itbah Al-Yahud / Khaybar ya Yahood.
No one charedi debates this
But lets ask it this way:
Are Teshuva, Tefila, Tzedaka (not sure where "torah" comes in?) a kiyum of bitachon or Hishtadlus?
What is the chiyuv of hishtadlus in the current situation?
Do we have any mesorah from chazal what to do when faced with dangerous enemies coming to kill you?
If all you remember is "Eisav was coming, with 400 hundred men, and Yaakov davened to hashem..." that's a distortion of Maase Avos Siman L'Banim we see there. The mesorah is three pronged. Daven, Gifts, Fight.
Hashem is sending us rockets, and instead of taking it as a sign that klal yisrael (and ME included) need to do teshuva -- BUT everybody is busy brainstorming with plans of how to fight back, Kochi V'otzem Yadi. Screaming Never Again!
I've never heard anyone brainstorming KVOY plans. Maybe the (we're not in control, this is an impossible situation, only hashem can help) Nuke them all.
The KVOY Never Again is dead. It died on Simchas Torah.
Perhaps the biggest purveyor of Kochi V'otzem Yadi ideas that I've seen among the Chareidi are the "extremist" Peleg people who think that their Maachos do anything. How many times have I heard one say "see, It works!"? Tons!

When klal yisrael does teshuva and realizes that there is absolutely nothing to rely on except Hashem.  Hashem is our ONLY salvation - Then Hashem himself will take care of all our enemies in an instant and bring in the Geulah. But till then, when we put our bitachon on other things - we are causing the delay of the Geulah.
Didn't help the Baalie Hatosfos during the Crusades. Nor the very frum communities of Greater Poland during Tach V'Tat...
We don't know what the plan is.
That's the problem with the modern day neo-Novaradokism that's become popular recently. You end up thinking that if only I had enough bitachon that Hashems plan is what I think it should be, then Hashem will make my plan happen.
Thousands and Thousands of yidden, throughout the centuries since, have been killed al kiddush hashem while having 100% emuna shemeima that there is absolutely nothing to rely on except Hashem, and the rest of their generation had the same beliefs.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2024, 08:10:17 AM by yfr bachur »

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #311 on: July 11, 2024, 07:52:28 AM »
Every time mashiach comes these things happen.

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #312 on: July 11, 2024, 08:05:07 AM »
Great post YFR Bachur. Thanks for taking the time to write this out.

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #313 on: July 11, 2024, 08:14:23 AM »
Um, if your chinuch can't stand up to a little wind, it's not worth much at all...
And anyway, that a garbage answer.
You can't publish the name of hostages for tehillim for fear that a bachur may get confused? about what exactly, and how?
The simple act of publishing the name of a soldier who was killed will take away from the "Ikurkeit" of a bachur?While this may have been true for the first month or so of zman, today it is verifiably false.Strong enough words do not exist in polite english to express how garbage this is, Hashkaficaly and Chinuch-wise.
Wow, that's quite a guzma. Maybe they have Siyata Dishmaya. IF we are zoche to it.
We don't have nevua today. Even those who like to quote what Reb Elchonon heard from the Chofetz Chaim say that the CC was the last person we had who was able to see that way.
A. Stop. Just stop. How many times in my short 30+ year lifetime have I heard that this right now is the final days before moshiach and this is the beginnings of Gog Umagog... And the Whatever of Russia and the Persians, and dont you know its all written down since the time of sancheirev and the geulas moshiach will come this year bec we said birchas hachama on a tuesday just like the year of yetzias mitzroyim, and it has to be this year because it motzei shmita and the gemara says the ben dovid comes in then, and the world never, ever experienced a quarantine ever, and also Covid is gematria moshiach so he has to becoming next week on monday morning.

B. There is actually a real problem talking this way. It destroys peoples Emuna.
There's a story (I think its in in Tzidkus Stands Forever) about a similar time decades ago when people were getting carried away that He must be coming right now, where non-shomer shabbos yid closed his store and started coming to shul on Shabbos (doing Teshuva), and the Rav went to him and explained to him that Moshiach is most likely not coming right now, but further in the future... when people asked why he told the man that, the Rav said something like "until now, he was not shomer shabbos, but believed in hashem and moshiach and Olam Haba, the risk is that the disappointment from moshiach not coming is liable to destroy his Emuna to the point that he will no longer be a ben Olam Haba.
If you look historically - many times when there was a time that the Olam said that he is coming right now... It was followed by a national depression/yiush
Rav Aharon Lopiansky wrote a long piece pretty early in Corona explaining this.
Achake Lo Bechol Yom Sheavo - theres a question where the comma goes. Is it "Every day, I await his coming, whenever it may be" or "I await that he maybe coming each and every day". In any case, it's not "everyday, I know he must becoming that very day"
Again, the Gedolim don't KNOW. They can give us their hasharah, shikul hadass... it's not knowledge
Also, the massive historical ignorance shown of the undeniable me'al derech hateva of previous Israeli wars... Like all of them. You know that the only reason the Syrians did not massacre Bnei Brak on Yom Kippur of '73, is that because the borders were so poorly defended and they outmarched their initial plans of attack exponentially and had a clear road to more or less anywhere they wanted to go in the country, their commanders suspected a trap and stopped their advance? that there was a tank battle in the golan where the israelis were outnumbered 10-1 and defended their positions for days, until they literaly were at the breaking point, and then syrians called off the offensive, when if they would have gone on just a bit more they would have broken the Israeli lines...
If you don't believe that the 6 day War was me'al derech hateva... Well then, you believe in kochi v'otzem yodi more than many secular Israelis.
And what do you mean "win"? by the way you seem to define it The Israelis haven't won any wars aside from 48 and 67.
No one charedi debates this
But lets ask it this way:
Are Teshuva, Tefila, Tzedaka (not sure where "torah" comes in?) a kiyum of bitachon or Hishtadlus?
What is the chiyuv of hishtadlus in the current situation?
Do we have any mesorah from chazal what to do when faced with dangerous enemies coming to kill you?
If all you remember is "Eisav was coming, with 400 hundred men, and Yaakov davened to hashem..." that's a distortion of Maase Avos Siman L'Banim we see there. The mesorah is three pronged. Daven, Gifts, Fight.I've never heard anyone brainstorming KVOY plans. Maybe the (we're not in control, this is an impossible situation, only hashem can help) Nuke them all.
The KVOY Never Again is dead. It died on Simchas Torah.
Perhaps the biggest purveyor of Kochi V'otzem Yadi ideas that I've seen among the Chareidi are the "extremist" Peleg people who think that their Maachos do anything. How many times have I heard one say "see, It works!"? Tons!
Didn't help the Baalie Hatosfos during the Crusades. Nor the very frum communities of Greater Poland during Tach V'Tat...
We don't know what the plan is.
That's the problem with the modern day neo-Novaradokism that's become popular recently. You end up thinking that if only I had enough bitachon that Hashems plan is what I think it should be, then Hashem will make my plan happen.
Thousands and Thousands of yidden, throughout the centuries since, have been killed al kiddush hashem while having 100% emuna shemeima that there is absolutely nothing to rely on except Hashem, and the rest of their generation had the same beliefs.
What a great post. I would just correct one thing....birkas hachama is always on a Wednesday

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #314 on: July 11, 2024, 08:31:18 AM »
What a great post. I would just correct one thing....birkas hachama is always on a Wednesday
...and wasn't in the year of yetzias mitzrayim either...

Rav Lopiansky's article can be found at
https://mishpacha.com/sometimes-mashiach-is-not-the-solution/

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #315 on: July 11, 2024, 08:56:29 AM »
If you don't believe that the 6 day War was me'al derech hateva... Well then, you believe in kochi v'otzem yodi more than many secular Israelis.
This is far from simple, while everything is “miraculous to some extent” the western powers firmly predicted a stunning Israeli victory “bderech hateva”.

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #316 on: July 11, 2024, 09:00:41 AM »
This is far from simple, while everything is “miraculous to some extent” the western powers firmly predicted a stunning Israeli victory “bderech hateva”.

I'll need some sourcing for that. I've never seen that in any history I've read.
but willing to learn...

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #317 on: July 11, 2024, 09:08:38 AM »
I'll need some sourcing for that. I've never seen that in any history I've read.
but willing to learn...
https://www.cia.gov/resources/csi/static/CIA-Analysis-1967-War.pdf

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #318 on: July 11, 2024, 09:39:56 AM »
https://www.cia.gov/resources/csi/static/CIA-Analysis-1967-War.pdf

I do not see that the sourced underlying primary documents support the premise
the western powers firmly predicted a stunning Israeli victory “bderech hateva”.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v19/d44
Quote
44. Memorandum Prepared in the Central Intelligence Agency1
Washington, May 23, 1967.
SUBJECT
Overall Arab and Israeli Military Capabilities
1.
The judgment of the intelligence community is that Israeli ground forces “can maintain internal security, defend successfully against simultaneous Arab attacks on all fronts, launch limited attacks simultaneously on all fronts, or hold on any three fronts while mounting successfully a major offensive on the fourth.” In the air, the judgment is less clear: the Israelis “probably could defeat the Egyptian air force if Israel’s air facilities were not damaged beyond repair.”
2.
Those judgments rest essentially on the proposition that the quality of Israel’s military leadership, its ability to organize operations and maintain its equipment in a high state of readiness, and the high morale [Page 74]and intelligence of the individual Israeli ground soldier will make up for Israel’s quantitative inferiority in men and equipment. The Israelis have consistently stressed intensive training, with emphasis on armor, standardization of weapons, rapid and reliable communications, and a very strong tactical intelligence effort. Egyptian capabilities in these areas appear to be inferior.
3.
Moreover, in the air, the Israelis have been acutely conscious of the difficulty of defending their air facilities, and have made strenuous efforts to overcome the fact that their bases are very short warning time from the Arab borders. They have “hardened” their fields with dispersed pens, for example. Israeli pilots and tactics are considered superior, and, in terms of operationally assigned fighter aircraft rather than total inventory, Israel has a slight edge—256 to 222.
4.
Israeli planning is based on a short war, conducted by ground forces with air cover. If this assumption should prove wrong, Israel might well be in trouble, since the Arabs’ quantitative superiority would come into play. At M+48 hours, for example, Israel would have 280,000 men vs. the Arabs’ 117,000 deployed in the vicinity of the Israeli borders. But the total strength of the Arab armies is nearly 500,000, vs. the same 280,000 on the Israeli side.
5.
This is not to say that the rout of the Egyptians in 1956 will be repeated. The Egyptian forces have improved substantially in the past eleven years, and they have acquired considerable operational know-how by rotating combat units in Yemen. Nevertheless, we consider that the Israeli forces have retained an over-all superiority.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v19/d76
Quote
76. Intelligence Memorandum Prepared in the Central Intelligence Agency1
[document number not declassified]
Washington, May 26, 1967.
MILITARY CAPABILITIES OF ISRAEL AND THE ARAB STATES

Summary

Israel could almost certainly attain air superiority over the Sinai Peninsula in 24 hours after taking the initiative or in two or three days [Page 139]if the UAR struck first. In the latter case, Israel might lose up to half of its air force. We estimate that armored striking forces could breach the UAR’s double defense line in the Sinai within several days. Regrouping and resupplying would be required before the Israelis could initiate further attacks aimed at driving to the Suez Canal. Israel could contain any attacks by Syria or Jordan during this period.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v19/d79
Quote
79. Memorandum From the Central Intelligence Agency’s Board of National Estimates to Director of Central Intelligence Helms1
Washington, May 26, 1967.
SUBJECT
The Middle Eastern Crisis
1.
The first thing that calls for explanation in the present crisis is why Nasser chose at this moment to abandon his long-standing reluctance to risk military confrontation with Israel.
a.
At the immediate moment Nasser was probably prompted to initiate these maneuvers by Israeli threats against Syria. He probably felt that he had to identify himself with Arab nationalist interests and that some action on his part would refurbish his image in the Arab world. These views, however, are probably insufficient to explain all the events that have occurred.
b.
He probably had decided (though he stated the contrary not long ago) that his armed forces were improved to the point where they could successfully stand off an Israeli offensive, even though they might be unable to defeat Israel decisively. Accordingly, he may have felt that if he could get his army properly deployed in the Sinai Peninsula and elsewhere, the chances of war would be acceptable.
c.
It is possible that the Soviets encouraged him in these views. We do not believe that the whole operation is a Soviet plan, or even that the Soviets urged him to his present course of action, but their attitude must have been sufficiently permissive so that he knew he could count on political and logistic support from them in the course of the crisis. The interests of the Soviet Union itself would obviously be served by successes for Nasser at the expense of Israel and the US.
d.
The US preoccupation with Vietnam and the bad blood occasioned thereby between the US and the USSR, probably had some important influence on the nature of Nasser’s decision as well as its timing.
e.
There may have been some element of desperation in Nasser’s attitude, arising from the parlous condition of the Egyptian economy, the worsening of relations with the US, a belief that some sort of US-Israeli plot against him existed, and perhaps a fatalistic conclusion that [Page 149]a showdown with Israel must come sooner or later, and might best be provoked before Israel acquired nuclear weapons.
f.
He may also have concluded, from a tactical point of view, that he could gamble on US influence and perhaps some Israeli indecisiveness to prevent an Israeli offensive at the early and most vulnerable stages of his deployments.
2.
The movement of UAR troops seems to have gone smoothly and expertly. Yet there must have been in this as in other crises a large element of accident in the actual course of events. For example, Nasser probably did not expect such a speedy departure of UN forces from Sharm El Sheikh, giving him opportunity for a quick seizure of the position and an announced closing of the Strait. He has thus far managed the crisis, from his point of view, with great skill and success.
3.
Clearly Nasser has won the first round. It is possible that he may seek a military show-down with Israel, designed to settle the whole problem once and for all. This seems to us highly unlikely. We still do not believe that Nasser considers his forces (together with those of other Arab states) capable of carrying such a campaign to a successful conclusion. And in our opinion they are not so capable. Moreover we believe that the Soviets would almost certainly advise Nasser against a military effort of this magnitude, perhaps with strong insistence.
4.
The most likely course seems to be for Nasser to hold to his present winnings as long as he can, and in as full measure as he can. As of the moment he has vastly enhanced his own prestige in Egypt and throughout the Arab world, diminished the standing of Israel and, at least for the moment, administered a serious setback to the US. Moreover, by simply standing where he is he places the Israelis in an extremely difficult position. He keeps the crisis at high pitch, and as long as this continues the Israelis must remain mobilized. This they cannot do for long without adverse effects upon their economy.
5.
The Israelis face dismaying choices. Surprised and shaken by Nasser’s action, they failed to take the instant military counteraction which might have been most effective. If they attack now they will face far more formidable opposition than in the rapid campaign of 1956. We believe that they would still be able to drive the Egyptians away from the entrance to the Strait of Tiran, but it would certainly cost them heavy losses of men and materiel. We are not sure that they have sufficient stockpiles of ammunition and equipment for a war lasting more than three or four weeks, and it is possible that they would not embark upon a major campaign without prior assurances from the US of adequate resupply.
6.
But the alternative for the Israelis is perilous. To acquiesce in the permanent closing of the Strait of Tiran would constitute an economic [Page 150]and political setback from which no early recovery would be foreseeable. The Israelis would expect, correctly we believe, that the Arabs over the long run would be encouraged to undertake new and still more dangerous harassments. We are inclined to believe that unless the US and other major powers take whatever steps are necessary to reopen the Strait, the Israelis will feel compelled to go to war.

7.
In this event they might choose to begin hostilities by attacking Syria and wait for the Egyptians to respond. If the Egyptians did not, Nasser would lose much of what he has gained. If they did, they would lose the advantage of their defensive positions.
8.
The Soviets are unlikely to take vigorous steps to calm down the crisis so long as it continues to produce deleterious effects upon Israel (and the US) and advantages for Nasser. Nevertheless they may be apprehensive about the future course of events. They may not have known in advance about the closing of the Strait. We do not believe that they desire a Middle Eastern war or that they have planned with Nasser the destruction of Israel at this juncture. They will probably oppose by diplomatic and propagandistic means any efforts by the US and the Western Powers to open the Strait. But, if we assume an attempt by the Western Powers to open the Strait by military force, we do not think that the Soviets would use their own armed forces in opposition.
9.
One almost certain objective of the Soviets is to see the US more firmly and publicly identified with Israel. This would have the obvious effect of making the entire Arab world—including in an ambivalent way even the more conservative states—convinced that the US is irrevocably committed to their common enemy. It would further weaken the US position in the area, threaten US oil interests, and strengthen the Soviet position as friend and protector of all Arabs against their imperialist foes. This Soviet aim has already been realized in considerable degree. Moreover the Soviets must be glad to see US attention diverted from Vietnam, but it does not seem likely that they think the Middle Eastern crisis will appreciably affect US military capabilities or intentions in Southeast Asia.
10.
One important question is what the Soviets would do if the Israelis attacked the UAR and waged a successful campaign. Such an event would be a grave setback for Nasser and, by extension, for the USSR itself. Nevertheless we do not believe that the Soviets would intervene in the conflict with their own combat forces. They could, of course, use their bomber and missile forces against Israel, but they would be very unlikely to do so, though they might threaten it. They do not have the capability of introducing lesser kinds of forces (ground troops, or volunteers) in this area with sufficient speed to be decisive, and we do not think they would try to do so. They would be cautious about the risk of armed confrontation with US forces. And they would probably count [Page 151]upon the political intervention of great powers, including themselves, to stop the fighting before Nasser had suffered too much damage.
11.
The position of other Arab countries than the UAR is, at this stage of crisis, ancillary and comparatively unimportant. Conceivably Syria might touch off larger hostilities by attacking Israel in force, but we believe that both Nasser and the USSR would be opposed to such action. If war broke out Syrian forces would engage, other Arab states would send help, but it would not matter very much. The crisis in its present acute intensity is essentially one between Israel and the UAR, the US and the UAR, and (to a more moderate degree) between the US and the USSR. The course of events will depend upon the action and reactions of these powers.
For the Board of National Estimates:
Sherman Kent
Chairman
« Last Edit: July 11, 2024, 09:43:50 AM by yfr bachur »

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #319 on: July 11, 2024, 09:41:26 AM »
This is far from simple, while everything is “miraculous to some extent” the western powers firmly predicted a stunning Israeli victory “bderech hateva”.
They also predicted Israel losing up to half its Air Force. Israel for its part was so terrified of impending massive casualties that they began preparing playgrounds, parks and fields to bury the huge numbers of casualties they feared would need burial.