Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[imayid2]

They also predicted Israel losing up to half its Air Force. Israel for its part was so terrified of impending massive casualties that they began preparing playgrounds, parks and fields to bury the huge numbers of casualties they feared would need burial.

It’s great to see the miracles along the way, but the common narrative that Al pi derech hateva they should have been defeated is utterly false.

[yfr bachur]

It’s great to see the miracles along the way, but the common narrative that Al pi derech hateva they should have been defeated is utterly false.

There's a wide gap between saying the war was m'eal derach hateva to saying that Al pi derech hateva israel would have been defeated.

[Moshe Green]

Have you ever considered you are fighting a battle that we won 40 years ago?

What you are saying is that if the government decides to forcibly conscript Chareidi boys then many of them won't go off the derech??? 
Because the "battle was won" 
We are still very much in a dark, dark, Galus... Sorry if this is a surprise to you.

[imayid2]

There's a wide gap between saying the war was m'eal derach hateva to saying that Al pi derech hateva israel would have been defeated.

These are not open miracles. The victory was well within range of military estimates.

[yfr bachur]

These are not open miracles. The victory was well within range of military estimates.

If you're looking for barad coming down from heaven, or sand turning into spears... yes.
We don't get these things today.
The me'al derech hateveh is concealed within the theoretically plausible.
Is Iron Dome Al pi derech hateva or m'eal derach hateva? when theidea of it was conceived it was science fantasy, which was poo-pooed by scientists and defense experts... But it works at success rates beyond what was dreamed. The US spent years and untold fortunes trying to develop similar systems with much lower levels of success

We'll have to agree to disagree on the "well within". I see "slightly beyond the rosiest predictions".

[EliJelly]

If you're looking for barad coming down from heaven, or sand turning into spears... yes.
We don't get these things today.
The me'al derech hateveh is concealed within the theoretically plausible.
Is Iron Dome Al pi derech hateva or m'eal derach hateva? when theidea of it was conceived it was science fantasy, which was poo-pooed by scientists and defense experts... But it works at success rates beyond what was dreamed. The US spent years and untold fortunes trying to develop similar systems with much lower levels of success

We'll have to agree to disagree on the "well within". I see "slightly beyond the rosiest predictions".

So the '67 imagined and overhyped "nisim" were just Iron Dome level nisim, got it.

[jye]

https://www.torahmusings.com/2017/07/was-the-six-day-war-a-miracle/

[yelped]

They also predicted Israel losing up to half its Air Force. Israel for its part was so terrified of impending massive casualties that they began preparing playgrounds, parks and fields to bury the huge numbers of casualties they feared would need burial.

And yeshiva students were handed rifles and told to teach themselves how to use it and to set up sandbags by the windows, i.e., they were afraid of the country being overrun CVS with Arab soldiers.

[notyettaken]

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/02/no-us-missile-defense-system-proven-capable-against-realistic-icbm-threats-study/

the consensus seams to be that it is extremely difficult to shoot down ballistic missiles (most optimistic number is 25% success rate), and has never been done outside of testing until Israel shot down about 100 before Pesach at about the same time. this counts as a miracle in my books, but those who chose to close their eyes can do so.

[Ver hut gazugt]

It’s great to see the miracles along the way, but the common narrative that Al pi derech hateva they should have been defeated is utterly false.

I don’t think this is true at all. At the time people did not think so.

I did not read the whole paper you posted but just from the first two pages you can read between the lines, that the cia was against sending military aid and this is why their “analysis “ said Israel can do it on their own.

[monoso]

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/02/no-us-missile-defense-system-proven-capable-against-realistic-icbm-threats-study/

the consensus seams to be that it is extremely difficult to shoot down ballistic missiles (most optimistic number is 25% success rate), and has never been done outside of testing until Israel shot down about 100 before Pesach at about the same time. this counts as a miracle in my books, but those who chose to close their eyes can do so.

  I looked into this a while back and the details of how many ballistic missiles were launched, how many failed at launch, how many were shot down, and how many intercepts were launched per missile are unknown. Quickly googling now it doesn't seem that much more information was released since the initial attack. I don't think you can evaluate this attack quite yet. Also, remember they were incredibly prepared for this attack, and many counties assisted in the defense. I may be choosing to close my eyes though:)

[Ergel]

What you are saying is that if the government decides to forcibly conscript Chareidi boys then many of them won't go off the derech??? 
Because the "battle was won" 
We are still very much in a dark, dark, Galus... Sorry if this is a surprise to you.

What I'm saying is that we should get in front of this and have honest dialogue about who should and shouldn't be serving, be proactive in setting up situations that allow our boys to succeed, and improve our chinuch system so that crying when you hear a fellow Jew was killed while helping to protect other Yidden won't send someone off the derech.
Of course we are still in a dark galus, but there is also a lot of light. Sorry if the fact that you've been brought up in a room that refuses to let any of that light in doesn't allow you to see the light

[Moshe Green]

What I'm saying is that we should get in front of this and have honest dialogue about who should and shouldn't be serving, be proactive in setting up situations that allow our boys to succeed, and improve our chinuch system so that crying when you hear a fellow Jew was killed while helping to protect other Yidden won't send someone off the derech.
Of course we are still in a dark galus, but there is also a lot of light. Sorry if the fact that you've been brought up in a room that refuses to let any of that light in doesn't allow you to see the light

I personally was brought up in a very open out-of-town community. We supported Israel and the troops with all our might. I was at the 1,000,000 march in Washington 23 years ago and I still support Israel to the outside world. And i'm sure many here on this forum are exactly like that as well.

But when you see the Secular government + Supreme Court going after our way of life, (actually their way of life as well, they are Jewish after all, but they just are lost) and the tool being used to attack us is the army, then its really really hard to feel for the ones trying to get you, even if they are your brothers.

The police as well. They are protecting us but they persecute us as well. While lefty protesters get stern warnings (at least until recently) we get violently plummeted and trampled on. Can we care about such people? Is it humanly possible? Or only the real big Tzadikim can do such a thing?

[LongTimeLurker]

The police as well. They are protecting us but they persecute us as well. While lefty protesters get stern warnings (at least until recently) we get violently plummeted and trampled on. Can we care about such people? Is it humanly possible? Or only the real big Tzadikim can do such a thing?

I will tell you from the "other" side.
I still care about all my fellow Jews; even when they treat the leftist protesters with kid gloves when they prosecuted and vilified the right when protesting the Gaza withdrawal or Oslo.

I still care about haredi Jews, but I feel a mix of anger and sadness that the community doesn't at least understand the situation or try and fix it, or even understand that the lifestyle they choose to live is funded by others who no longer agree with doing that  anymore.

I am angry at the government for not being able to govern for 20 years, so we end up with the court making decisions that end up being inherently political; The Knesset makes all sorts of laws and then can't figure out why the courts enforce them.

I am angry at the Jews who corrupted the Army name and used it for political purposes, calling for refusing to serve because of a political reform they didn't like; look where it got us.

I am angry at the idiots who ram rodded the political reform without thinking about what they were doing or marketing it better

I am angry at the media for basically being one sided and continuing to be one sided.

But we're all Jews, and this is literally the only country we have.. In deeply secular Israel most people still know what Pesach is, they still go to a seder; everyone celebrates Hannukah. Purim is a national holiday. On Sukkot there are sukkot everywhere, even in deeply leftist kibutzim.

So yes, we all need a very large family therapy session for all of us here, but in the meanwhile we're surrounded by blood thirsty enemies so we have to take care of that first. Somehow that got lost very quickly.
 
To bring Ben Franklin in to this, "Gentleman either we hang together, or we shall all hang separately".

[imayid2]

Some interesting points from a DL soldier’s perspective on the draft.

[LongTimeLurker]

Some interesting points from a DL soldier’s perspective on the draft.

this is not the majority opinion among most serving bnei torah

[imayid2]

this is not the majority opinion among most serving bnei torah

Says here that most of his chevra share his opinion.

Most of the people that I am currently serving with, as well as many of my friends and acquaintances are Datti Leumi, and they certainly do not feel the way that this blogger contends that they do. Many of them have great admiration for full time Torah learners and realize the vital role that they play in both the moral and physical continuity of the Jewish people. Even among those who don’t share this appreciation of full time Torah learners, they tend to realize that this is a sincerely held position, that even if they feel is incorrect, is still deserving of respect.

The Datti Leumi community is not monolithic, and of course there are always individuals who don’t share their community’s values. In general there are 2 groups among the Datti Leumi who are truly resentful of charedim. The larger one is the hard left of the Datti Leumi community, that practices a “light” form of Judaism and is generally secular in their worldview. Their resentment of charedim is largely the result of a universal phenomena in which people resent those who are accomplishing that which they ostensibly believe in but are not themselves willing to make the effort to accomplish. This is a well known historical phenomena that has always caused resentment by the less authentically religious towards the more authentically religious. This resentment is unrelated to Army Service as they are equally resentful of the chardalim, who serve in the army with distinction.

The second group, and the one that is relevant to our discussion, is the community of largely English speaking immigrants to Israel, that adheres to a Datti Leumi ideology. Among this community, almost universally those that bitterly resent the non service of charedim in the army have themselves not served. They tend to have a very idealized notion of what the IDF is, both in terms of its relationship with religion and it’s actual roll in defending Jewish people. In their idealized picture, the IDF is largely populated by idealistic people in love with the Jewish people and willing to sacrifice anything for their well-being. Even if these imaginary people are not religious, they still see their great commitment to the Jewish people as being something elevated, towards which all others should aspire. When they lived in chutz laaretz, Zionism was a major part of their Jewish identity, and they never really progressed beyond that. To question such a central Zionist ideal as the IDF is to threaten a core element of who they are.

Those who have served time within the IDF are well aware of how far this naïve view is from reality. Even if one actually believes that the IDF is what is standing between the Jewish people in Israel and total annihilation, it is still clear that the moral imperative (otherwise known as backbone) for this commitment must come from somewhere outside of the IDF.

Right now my battalion and those around us, are awaiting a battle in which we will not have the proper equipment, or an effective battle doctrine. We also suffer from senior leadership that is confused, and whose commitment to victory is questionable (the junior leadership tends not to share these characteristics). We are well aware that the IDF is not up to the task of keeping the Jews safe, and that our own lives and futures are leaning upon a thin reed indeed. If we make it through this and prevail without suffering horrendous casualties, it will only because of sincere prayers and the merit of those who make Torah their life’s mission. We need more Bnei Torah much more than we need more soldiers.

Those around me (the religious ones, not speaking of the secular soldiers) are mostly from the Datti Leumi community, and generally share my opinion. Many have expressed it to me without being provoked. So no, our blogger’s position, while it is "a thing" among certain anglo immigrants, is not very mainstream among the Datti Leumi community, especially its more sincerely religious elements.

[LongTimeLurker]

Says here that most of his chevra share his opinion.

Reading between the lines, he is chardal.

Reading even more between the lines he does not like where he came from.

[LongTimeLurker]

I think this is interesting from a historical view.. a lot of what the current generation is saying in new and does not reflect the values of their grandparents

If someone needs a translation lmk

[EliJelly]

I think this is interesting from a historical view.. a lot of what the current generation is saying in new and does not reflect the values of their grandparents

Nothing new here. Rav Shmuel Auerbach's grandfather Reb Chaim Leib Auerbach z"l was a Talmid of R' Kook, Rav Elyashov's shver - Rav Aryeh Levin was a close talmid too and devoted zionist, who celebrated every independence day on the dais alongside IDF generals. There were rebbes who held a ה׳ אייר tish. In those days the avodah zara of Zionism was real and swept in many chareidim, many of who's grandchildren have BH come to their senses and now totally reject zionism. People are not bound to the mistakes of their grandparents, and you cannot ask them to support something they oppose now and to share the responsibility with those who support it.