Poll

Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

Yes
10 (18.9%)
No
26 (49.1%)
Not the Army but some form of service
7 (13.2%)
It's complicated
7 (13.2%)
I don't have an opinion
3 (5.7%)

Total Members Voted: 53

Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 69195 times)

Offline yelped

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #340 on: July 12, 2024, 01:26:34 PM »
Nothing new here. Rav Shmuel Auerbach's grandfather Reb Chaim Leib Auerbach z"l was a Talmid of R' Kook, Rav Elyashov's shver - Rav Aryeh Levin was a close talmid too and devoted zionist, who celebrated every independence day on the dais alongside IDF generals. There were rebbes who held a ה׳ אייר tish. In those days the avodah zara of Zionism was real and swept in many chareidim, many of who's grandchildren have BH come to their senses and now totally reject zionism. People are not bound to the mistakes of their grandparents, and you cannot ask them to support something they oppose now and to share the responsibility with those who support it.
Now do the other side.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #341 on: July 12, 2024, 01:34:01 PM »
Now do the other side.

The other side should take up arms and go serve in the IDF without the פוילע תירוצים :P

Offline yelped

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #342 on: July 12, 2024, 01:38:28 PM »
The other side should take up arms and go serve in the IDF without the פוילע תירוצים :P
They say that about you.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #343 on: July 12, 2024, 01:43:49 PM »
They say that about you.

No, they wouldn't make this law for the Briskers and Eida guys whom they wouldn't dare calling in to and have no leverage against. It's for the parties who reap in millions and have a sizable representation in the government and are a key block in formation of the governments. 

Offline yelped

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #344 on: July 12, 2024, 02:47:19 PM »
No, they wouldn't make this law for the Briskers and Eida guys whom they wouldn't dare calling in to and have no leverage against. It's for the parties who reap in millions and have a sizable representation in the government and are a key block in formation of the governments.
Sounds like you're eagerly awaiting the testing of this theory so you can say "Di Rebbe iz gevehn gerecht".  :P

Offline WayBackMachine

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #345 on: July 12, 2024, 04:55:44 PM »
Nothing new here. Rav Shmuel Auerbach's grandfather Reb Chaim Leib Auerbach z"l was a Talmid of R' Kook, Rav Elyashov's shver - Rav Aryeh Levin was a close talmid too and devoted zionist, who celebrated every independence day on the dais alongside IDF generals. There were rebbes who held a ה׳ אייר tish. In those days the avodah zara of Zionism was real and swept in many chareidim, many of who's grandchildren have BH come to their senses and now totally reject zionism. People are not bound to the mistakes of their grandparents, and you cannot ask them to support something they oppose now and to share the responsibility with those who support it.
someone that's a Zaidi with white hair, I don't know his age, told me when he was young he used to go to the Knesset all the time to listen to the speeches,
until someone that migrated from Teheran told him his story how the Israeli government tried to wipe out of their memory anything tied to religion, he stopped going

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #346 on: July 12, 2024, 06:08:38 PM »
Sounds like you're eagerly awaiting the testing of this theory so you can say "Di Rebbe iz gevehn gerecht".  :P

He doesn't need any approval, and that's just common sense too, not a rocket science theory.  :)

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #347 on: July 13, 2024, 02:45:08 PM »
It turns out, if you don't teach English in the schools, then you might not be able to flee the draft either!
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=136887.msg2842694#msg2842694

(Full disclosure, I think a lot of secular Israelis have little to no English as well but at least they pretend to try and teach them.. I just find the linked thread amusing for many reasons)

Online mevinyavin

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #348 on: July 22, 2024, 04:10:22 AM »
The irony? Or maybe a simple way to differentiate?
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/393399

Quote
Haredim report receiving draft orders by text message
Haredim, aged 25, including yeshiva students, received text messages calling them to report to the Recruiting Office for their first draft order.
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #349 on: July 22, 2024, 04:23:57 AM »
The irony? Or maybe a simple way to differentiate?
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/393399

They more or less started from "chareidim" who are not in yeshiva anyway...
... daring us to go die on the hill protecting the "Toraso Umnaso" of a bachur with a truck license...

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #350 on: July 22, 2024, 11:54:04 AM »
They more or less started from "chareidim" who are not in yeshiva anyway...
... daring us to go die on the hill protecting the "Toraso Umnaso" of a bachur with a truck license...
reminds me of this week parsha where we went to war to save one maidservant...

Online AsherO

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #351 on: July 22, 2024, 01:51:09 PM »
They more or less started from "chareidim" who are not in yeshiva anyway...
... daring us to go die on the hill protecting the "Toraso Umnaso" of a bachur with a truck license...

To which the Charedi response is that if they give in one inch then it’s only a matter of time before every frum Jew is drafted.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline Saulius

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #352 on: July 22, 2024, 02:04:55 PM »
The irony? Or maybe a simple way to differentiate?
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/393399

I thought all chareidim have kosher phones, the phones and sims do not support text messaging. In the chareidi world of Israel, having a non-kosher phone gets you blacklisted in their community.


Online yshad

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #353 on: July 22, 2024, 02:36:55 PM »
I thought all chareidim have kosher phones, the phones and sims do not support text messaging. In the chareidi world of Israel, having a non-kosher phone gets you blacklisted in their community.

Like everything in this country, the way it is supposed to be and the way it actually is are vastly different.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #354 on: July 22, 2024, 02:41:47 PM »
FWIU The Chazon Ish and Rav Shach strongly held these types of bachurim should not get paturs precisely because it would undermine the pturim of serious learners.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #355 on: July 22, 2024, 03:39:54 PM »
FWIU The Chazon Ish and Rav Shach strongly held these types of bachurim should not get paturs as bnei yeshivos precisely because it would undermine the pturim of serious learners.

FTFY
They wouldn't send working bachurim to the army either. They just felt dodging the draft by that patur is damaging.

Offline Saulius

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #356 on: July 22, 2024, 03:59:26 PM »
FWIU The Chazon Ish and Rav Shach strongly held these types of bachurim should not get paturs precisely because it would undermine the pturim of serious learners.

Former Sephardi Chief Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef called on those who do not study Torah not to enlist, he said even a batlan should not go as the army is full of znus and nivul peh.

-----
רש"י Parshas Noach 6:13:
 
קץ כל בשר. כָּל מָקוֹם שֶׁאַתָּה מוֹצֵא זְנוּת וַעֲ"זָ אַנְדְּרוֹלוֹמוּסְיָא בָּאָה לְעוֹלָם וְהוֹרֶגֶת טוֹבִים וְרָעִים.


« Last Edit: July 22, 2024, 04:10:20 PM by Saulius »

Offline yfr bachur

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Offline Saulius

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Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #359 on: July 27, 2024, 05:37:18 PM »
I thought all chareidim have kosher phones, the phones and sims do not support text messaging. In the chareidi world of Israel, having a non-kosher phone gets you blacklisted in their community.

I know so many people with two phones. People from the community get the kosher number, everyone else gets the regular phone. WhatsApp is the new modern version of נייס. Let's not kid ourselves here