Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[EliJelly]

I'm just asking for his opinion. Pretty clear that whatever sources I'd bring you'd be explaining to me why they don't apply. You've clearly already made your mind up.

I don't see this question as something which is tolui in anyone's opinion.

[imayid2]

I'm just asking for his opinion. Pretty clear that whatever sources I'd bring you'd be explaining to me why they don't apply. You've clearly already made your mind up.

This is essentially an ad hominem fallacy where you get to cop out of a proving your position (already made up?) by accusing your opponent of an inability to have an honest dialogue about it.

[AsherO]

This is essentially an ad hominem fallacy where you get to cop out of a proving your position (already made up?) by accusing your opponent of an inability to have an honest dialogue about it.

I asked a question about R' Kallus whose position on my question I don't know. Someone else mixed in, I've already heard their position and don't seek to debate them because we wont change eachothers' mind.

[PaternalPrince]

This is essentially an ad hominem fallacy where you get to cop out of a proving your position (already made up?) by accusing your opponent of an inability to have an honest dialogue about it.

The truth stands true.

[PaternalPrince]

I don't get the logic behind the "why do only my children have to die" question. That is not something that anyone other than the ones mandating the draft have to respond to. Second I largely believe that if some of the children in reference did not make the army the place it is (the lowest morality of any army, no respect to religion etc.) than possibly some would be more open to joining the army. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[PaternalPrince]

I see, so the hishtadlus you agree with is bgeder hishtadlus, and the one you don't isn't...shocking

There are different levels of ,כוחי ועוצם ידי and they vary drastically, If someone that opens a pickle jar does not mentally give credit to Hashem for opening the pickle jar you would not likely call him out for lack of emunah. If someone makes a surprising amount on the stock market you would more likely have that opinion. The difference between closing a road and having the desired effect, and making drastic supernatural inroads during wartime is substantial.

[PaternalPrince]

Someone should ask him if the soldiers dying are Kedoshim.

Huh?

[EliJelly]

I've already heard their position

Really? Link?

[mevinyavin]

Here you have a guy complaining that Haredim will ruin the army (from his perspective). A new reason to join the army: for kiruv!
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/399353

[LongTimeLurker]

I don't get the logic behind the "why do only my children have to die" question. That is not something that anyone other than the ones mandating the draft have to respond to. Second I largely believe that if some of the children in reference did not make the army the place it is (the lowest morality of any army, no respect to religion etc.) than possibly some would be more open to joining the army. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and allow you to take back the part of "some of the children in reference", when those children are dying so you can continue with your life.

Have you actually set foot inside the army, before you decide on no respect to religion? Every base has a shul, the pkudot specifically require you to be allowed to pray 3x a day in accordance with halacha (at the expense of your not dati friends having to do extra work, btw, and they're fine with it), the food is all kosher with a mashgiach, etc etc etc. The Hesder guys seem to manage with 5 years of learning with a year and a half of army service and then reserves. I don't see why haredim couldn't start a hesder yeshiva, what makes them different?

[PaternalPrince]

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and allow you to take back the part of "some of the children in reference", when those children are dying so you can continue with your life.

Facts don't care how you feel.

Have you actually set foot inside the army, before you decide on no respect to religion?

I stand corrected. Rampant disrespect would likely be more factual.
Just to clarify I am not judging anyone and I respect and love all my brothers and sisters no matter where they are holding in life, especially if they are risking their lives to fight for our safety (tbh maybe exclude the Israeli police). However this does not erase the fact that with an irreligious upbringing coupled with the liberal attitude the powers at be decide to take when setting up the army renders some responsible for the state the army is in. There is no denying that running an army with reasonable standards is not an easy feat.

[LongTimeLurker]

Facts don't care how you feel.I stand corrected. Rampant disrespect would likely be more factual.
Just to clarify I am not judging anyone and I respect and love all my brothers and sisters no matter where they are holding in life, especially if they are risking their lives to fight for our safety (tbh maybe exclude the Israeli police). However this does not erase the fact that with an irreligious upbringing coupled with the liberal attitude the powers at be decide to take when setting up the army renders some responsible for the state the army is in. There is no denying that running an army with reasonable standards is not an easy feat.

I do not know why I continue to feed the trolls.
please don't call us brothers and sisters and then shrug when we ask you to come fight by our side
at best, we're heading towards estranged

[yfr bachur]

I was at a shuir with him last winter and 2 american soldiers walked in afterward's he spoke to them gave them respect and gave them a promise they will come out of Gaza alive

As a talmid of his, thats the stupidest thing Ive ever heard quoted in his name.

[yfr bachur]

@PaternalPrince and others
Feel free to move outside the chareidi propaganda EC.
There are tens of thousands of Dati/Chardal talmidei chachamim doing just fine in the army. And doing their best to stay on top of their chovos in limud too.

[Yef]

Are you just relaying info from a different EC. Recently spoke to a DL turned chareidi that told me from his experience almost every one he knows that went into the army from DL Yeshivas have gone down tremendously in their ruchnius. And it happens quickly even to the ones that were learning well before

[Yef]

I don't follow the logic.
The grudge is that some people are fighting for you and you're not helping out.
He's saying people in the past got killed because they were Jewish and they gave up their life to not bow down to the cross or the likes of that.
That's not what's happening here. Here people are volunteering to get killed for others. The examples given they didn't. They gave up their lives because they had to.

His main point is what we are fighting for is that there should be torah, not just for rights to live in a secular land.

[yfr bachur]

Are you just relaying info from a different EC. Recently spoke to a DL turned chareidi that told me from his experience almost every one he knows that went into the army from DL Yeshivas have gone down tremendously in their ruchnius. And it happens quickly even to the ones that were learning well before

DL "Yeshiva HS" straight to the army or serious hesder programs? Theres a difference.
My Chardali relatives (which is the proper comparison, not the spectrum of "Dati") don't have any of the said experience.

[PaternalPrince]

@PaternalPrince and others
Feel free to move outside the chareidi propaganda EC.
There are tens of thousands of Dati/Chardal talmidei chachamim doing just fine in the army. And doing their best to stay on top of their chovos in limud too.

LOL

[PaternalPrince]

I do not know why I continue to feed the trolls.
please don't call us brothers and sisters and then shrug when we ask you to come fight by our side
at best, we're heading towards estranged

can you clarify?

[Just A Jew]

LOL

can you clarify?