Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[Yef]

DL "Yeshiva HS" straight to the army or serious hesder programs? Theres a difference.
My Chardali relatives (which is the proper comparison, not the spectrum of "Dati") don't have any of the said experience.

I pretty sure he was talking about serious hesder. I would double check with him but he’s in Lebanon at the moment

[Yef]

You do know that chardalim is a small minority of the Dati leumi

[imayid2]

https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/why-must-our-sons-risk-their-lives

We are all in this war together, but everybody has different tasks. Some fight. Some plan. Some drive. Some cook. Some repair tanks. Some maintain IT systems. Some work in communications. Some work regular jobs that keep roofs over folks heads and food in their mouths. Some stay at home raising the children. And some work towards the ultimate goal that the Jewish people was meant for, dedicating their lives to the service of Hashem and the study of His Torah, which is even more important in wartime than in peacetime.

Obviously, we can’t expect secular people who don't value for Torah to recognize this. To them, learning Torah is no different than rain dancing or eating hummus, as one of our commenters has suggested, so of course they must terribly resent the non-contribution of these lazy bums. But they too are part of the Jewish people, and we must do all we can to bring them back.

On the other hand, there are those who are ostensibly religious, who ought to appreciate the value of Torah, but who still resent the position of the yeshiva students. The yeshiva students are not risking their lives, and the combat soldiers are. While this seems like a simple argument, there is a nuance here, because not more than 5% of the population are actually combat soldiers, which obviously makes the argument far less compelling. But the nuance is as follow: Although a relatively small percentage of the population are actually risking their lives, the families and communities of these heroes are bearing the terrible burden of fear and mourning, as opposed to the communities of yeshiva students, who are ostensibly not. And it is extremely unfair that that the chareidi community gets off so easily. There can be no unity if every community does not experience roughly the same level of misery, so goes this line of thinking.

Some have even gone so far to claim that chareidim themselves do not really believe that they are making any contribution, and are only avoiding service out of selfishness. Of course, this perverted speculative approach to other people’s deeply held beliefs is patently absurd as well as deeply offensive (suppose I claimed that Zionists don’t really believe they have a right to a State, because they have not come up with a solution to the Palestinian issue?), but those who assert this likewise  make it quite clear that they consider it such an unforgivable crime that chareidim don’t serve, that there is no slander, no matter how distorted and despicable, that chareidim don’t deserve in return for their “shirking”.

We will not deal with such hatred-filled individuals for now, who can best be described as partners of Hamas, laser-focused on dividing the country during wartime just to get revenge on their ideological enemies, with no regard to the consequences. These people only deserve our blessing of רפואה שלימה. Rather, we will discuss the complaint of the group in the previous paragraph: Why must we, our sons, our husbands, our brothers put their lives on the line while you go to bed as if nothing happened? Isn’t this terribly immoral and unfair?

And the response is twofold.

First of all, who told you that the chareidim are unaffected? Many chareidim have non-chareidi relatives who are fighting. A very large percentage of chareidim are ba’alei teshuva. And since chareidim have such large, extended families, many have chareidi relatives in the army as well, including over 2,000 who signed up in the past few weeks, an almost 100% increase from previous years. And even those who do not, still possess the attribute of Ahavas Yisrael, feel solidarity with the rest of the country, and are affected by the losses on a deep emotional level.

But much more pertinently, this entire complaint is a very unfortunate distorted perspective. Who told you your sons and husbands must fight, while yeshiva students have the privilege of learning? Nobody forced anybody to enlist in the army rather than enlist in full-time learning. Anybody can decide to devote their lives to Torah study, and are welcomed and in fact encouraged by the chareidi community. Rather, those who volunteered to fight rather than learn full-time made a decision, and the yeshiva students also made a decision.

And guess what?

Both of these are good decisions.

We need religious soldiers and we need people learning. It is natural for individuals and communities to choose different tasks that are particularly suited to their identity. Some are more inclined towards combat, some more inclined towards engineering, and some more inclined towards full time Torah study.

Furthermore, and even more importantly, what are your sons and husbands fighting for? Is it so you can enjoy the good life? So that your can sip martinis at your poolside cabana? The Israeli version of the American dream? Of course not. As faithful religious Jews, you understand that they are fighting for the glory of God, for the continuity of the Jewish nation, and for the proliferation of the holy Torah. John Adams wrote: “I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.” But we have something vastly more important than mathematics and philosophy. We have the Holy Torah, which is חיינו ואורך ימינו, the life and length of our days. This is what our religious soldiers are fighting for, and to the extent that we make this our national character, we are likewise assured success in our military campaigns. The vital importance of yeshiva students who are uninterrupted in their studies is something agreed upon by both chareidi and Religious Zionist rabbis, and there is nobody who works to make this our national character as much as they do. Both the students and the religious soldiers are working towards the same goal, to sanctify God's name, and both are playing a necessary role.

This entire division, as if chareidim are a separate hereditary caste that don’t care for the rest of the country, is completely counterfactual, fallacious, is not how chareidim think at all, and is brought to you by the partners of Hamas we discussed before. Please don't fall for it, don't let it distract from our real goal, and with God's help, we will be successful.

For more on the true religious soldier’s perspective, see here: https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2

[PaternalPrince]

https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/why-must-our-sons-risk-their-lives

Beautiful

[Ergel]

These are the questions I want answered (as someone living in the charedi community and trying not to be depressed)
1. Is this war a milchemes mitzvah (based on the Rambam, I don't see how the answer could not be yes...but I'm willing to hear) - and if so why does it not have a din of אפילו כלה מחפתה
2. Why is there no attempt to make a misgeret where those who aren't learning full time can join the army. I think that most reasonable people are OK with X percentage (that percentage might differ, and there is so much discontent now that they might not admit it) of charedim learning. The issue is that when you look around, many are not learning or not learning full time - why should they not fight?
3. Even if the charedi community doesn't go to the army - why is there no noseh b'ol - why does it not feel like there is a war going on in the charedi community? Why when I go to pay a shiva call (during bein hazmanim!) am I the only one there in a white shirt? Why isn't there a larger movement in the charedi community to support those fighting?
4. If we truly believe תורה is what will save us - why is there bein hazmanin? Why aren't there mishmaros seven days a week? Why don't we actually practice what we preach?

[Yef]

1 you need a Melech to be called a milchemes mitzvah, not a secular govt
2 they tried during r Ahron Leib’s ztl time and it was a complete failure, he pulled out. The govt doesn’t not want to confirm to religious it is the opposite. The Chareidim don’t want their kids influenced by that environment even if they are not learning full time.
3 there should be a nosei bol. Davening for hatzlacha is and should definitely be done.
4 bein hazmanim is not a made up thing so everyone can have vacation. It serves a purpose for full time learners. No one is a robot. R chaim Shmuelevitz ztl was asked once to cancel bein hazmanim for a war. He said no way

[Ergel]

1 you need a Melech to be called a milchemes mitzvah, not a secular govt
2 they tried during r Ahron Leib’s ztl time and it was a complete failure, he pulled out. The govt doesn’t not want to confirm to religious it is the opposite. The Chareidim don’t want their kids influenced by that environment even if they are not learning full time.
3 there should be a nosei bol. Davening for hatzlacha is and should definitely be done.
4 bein hazmanim is not a made up thing so everyone can have vacation. It serves a purpose for full time learners. No one is a robot. R chaim Shmuelevitz ztl was asked once to cancel bein hazmanim for a war. He said no way

1. Rav Shlomo Zalman disagreed with this, do you have a source?
2. Do you have a source on the full history?
3. There should be...but is there?
4. Everyone needs 3 weeks + a month + 3 weeks vacation? Why do I not get that at work?

[jj1000]

I am shocked by the current poll results. Mind you, I didn't read this thread.

[PaternalPrince]

I am shocked by the current poll results. Mind you, I didn't read this thread.

Read the posts and you'll be even more surprised. Get out and vote!

[Yef]

1. Rav Shlomo Zalman disagreed with this, do you have a source?
2. Do you have a source on the full history?
3. There should be...but is there?
4. Everyone needs 3 weeks + a month + 3 weeks vacation? Why do I not get that at work?

1 yes, the Rambam! He says it meforash. Would love to see inside what r Shlomo Zalman says. Please send source. This is definitely what is prevalent understanding (except in dl circles)
2 r Shragi kallus talks about it in shiur quoted above
3 there is. Not sure if enough. But def more than secular Israelis that don’t care as much as you think they do
4 bein hazmanim is not to just sit batel. It is less learning or different misgeres. And between preparing for yt and having yt the actual vacation part is about a week. Secular learning centers of all sorts have much more vacation time than Bain hazmanim schedule. The learning through the year is tedious and breaks are a necessary need to make it work

[EliJelly]

These are the questions I want answered (as someone living in the charedi community and trying not to be depressed)

Who says you have an excuse not to serve? If for whatever reason anything in today's Israel resembles categories like מלחמת מצוה to you then you should probably follow your logic and pick up arms to fight.

[Just A Jew]

I am shocked by the current poll results. Mind you, I didn't read this thread.

The only thing which isn't shocking is that no one doesn't have an opinion.

[PaternalPrince]

The only thing which isn't shocking is that no one doesn't have an opinion.

LOL

[imayid2]

These are the questions I want answered (as someone living in the charedi community and trying not to be depressed)
1. Is this war a milchemes mitzvah (based on the Rambam, I don't see how the answer could not be yes...but I'm willing to hear) - and if so why does it not have a din of אפילו כלה מחפתה

(This guy is a gold mine)
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/hareidi-hasbara

They are halachically required to join a milchemes mitzvah

Finally, after wading through a morass of frivolous chatter, we reach one argument that may have validity, depending upon who makes it. There are some Dati poskim who conclude that Israel is perpetually engaged in a milchemes mitzvah, and also that there is no exemption for yeshiva students in a milchemes mitzvah.

However, a milchemes mitzvah in which everybody serves admits no exemptions at all, the Mishnah stresses that even a כלה בחופתה, a bride at her wedding, must drop everything and serve. There are no exemptions for those under 18, there are no exemptions for those over 50, there are no exemptions for those who were not citizens at age 18-25, there are no exemptions for anybody. Somebody who makes this argument, who is currently not serving but is taking advantage of an exemption to continue civilian life, is a ridiculous fraud that does not deserves a response.

Similarly, somebody who makes this argument but does not take halacha seriously in other areas of life, for example, who asserts that his daughter can sing in front men because of “sha’at hadchak”, or refuses to wear techeiles because he doesn’t want to “rock the boat” is likewise a complete fraud.

However, if somebody who actually walks the walk makes this argument, it deserves to be taken seriously.

And the response is that there are much greater poskim who feel that either Israel is not in a perpetual state of milchemes mitzva, or that since the urgency of the war is not at such a peak that even brides from their wedding chamber are drafted, yeshiva students shouldn’t be drafted either. This takes us to the other valid argument, that

Dati poskim rule the exemptions should be much more limited

Well, yes, they certainly do hold that way, and their followers should definitely follow them in this matter as well, and serve, unless they are one of those elite individuals who are exempt. But by the same token, numerous chareidi halachic authorities dispute this, and there is no reason why yeshiva students who identify as chareidi should not follow their own rabbis.

Like a monkey flinging earthenware vessels at the wall

As you can see, only the last two of these are arguments have any merit whatsoever, while the rest are completely unserious, the intellectual equivalent of a monkey flinging earthenware vessels at the walls of its enclosure, to the amusement of the onlookers. This takes us to

The real motive

In the end of the day, the real reason why 99% of the opponents feel comfortable deploying such meritless objections against the exemption for yeshiva students is because they simply don’t value the Torah or yeshiva much, if at all. As “shulman” put it so eloquently

The only true argument here is questioning the entire assumption, suggesting that Torah is indeed not so important, but let's not hide behind the army argument then; let's talk to the point. That's the whole point in calling it an outsider's perspective - we can discuss the validity of the worldview as a whole but presuming that the worldview is foolish and taking the conversation from there will get nowhere...

And indeed, when we observe the authors who are the most obsessed with the alleged intransigency of the chareidi world, we find that they are also the most secularist, the ones who constantly argue against Torah values in other areas, the ones who argue that Torah study isn’t terribly important, or that it has very limited utility, and only if studied with a Reform-Judaism oriented “tikkun-olam” orientation, the ones who argue against emunah and frankly admit that they don't believe God is protecting us. This is the type of attitude that is characteristic of the opponents.

Meanwhile, the religious soldiers who are serving heroically know what they are fighting for, know Who is really defending us, and know that both their own efforts and those of the spiritual bearers of the Torah combined are vital for the continuity of the Jewish nation and the sanctification of God’s name.

See this inspiring video which brought me to tears:

Tagging ChanaRachel , this is the explanation you requested, and thanks for your kids' (and your) service!

[Ergel]

1 yes, the Rambam! He says it meforash. Would love to see inside what r Shlomo Zalman says. Please send source. This is definitely what is prevalent understanding (except in dl circles)
2 r Shragi kallus talks about it in shiur quoted above
3 there is. Not sure if enough. But def more than secular Israelis that don’t care as much as you think they do
4 bein hazmanim is not to just sit batel. It is less learning or different misgeres. And between preparing for yt and having yt the actual vacation part is about a week. Secular learning centers of all sorts have much more vacation time than Bain hazmanim schedule. The learning through the year is tedious and breaks are a necessary need to make it work

1. https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=47989&st=&pgnum=333 I believe he says it elsewhere more forcefully, I will try and find
2. I guess I will have to listen, but would love a written source
3. "Not sure if enough" Do you live here? Have you walked outside?
4. "And between preparing for yt" for bochurim? LOL. "and having yt" Having YT isn't vacation? "the actual vacation part is about a week" That's kind of true for tishrei. Not for av or nissan. "The learning through the year is tedious and breaks are a necessary need to make it work" Do soldiers get the same leeway? Or is that less tedious and tiring?

[Ergel]

Who says you have an excuse not to serve? If for whatever reason anything in today's Israel resembles categories like מלחמת מצוה to you then you should probably follow your logic and pick up arms to fight.

Trust me I've considered it...though being almost 40 and fat - they won't take me

[Yef]

1. https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=47989&st=&pgnum=333 I believe he says it elsewhere more forcefully, I will try and find
2. I guess I will have to listen, but would love a written source
3. "Not sure if enough" Do you live here? Have you walked outside?
4. "And between preparing for yt" for bochurim? LOL. "and having yt" Having YT isn't vacation? "the actual vacation part is about a week" That's kind of true for tishrei. Not for av or nissan. "The learning through the year is tedious and breaks are a necessary need to make it work" Do soldiers get the same leeway? Or is that less tedious and tiring?

1 this teshuva is talking about finding cures for diseases?!?? Not for joining a secular army!
3 I don’t live there yet. I’ve been there recently though. Going to hostage square is not nosa bol. It is something blev
4 of course there are breaks in the army. Some stints have been longer recently, but nobody is in active battle for a year straight.
Plus the breaks that are needed for Bnei yeshiva are not decided on based on what other people do or need

[Just A Jew]

Question: if someone is not learning, should they go to the army, or is the fear that they will go OTD enough to say no frum person should go to the army?

[Definitions2]

Question: if someone is not learning, should they go to the army, or is the fear that they will go OTD enough to say no frum person should go to the army?

My impression of the army is that the former is preferable

[Definitions2]

 

His main point is what we are fighting for is that there should be torah, not just for rights to live in a secular land.

Would you suggest that no one should fight? I don't think so. So now whatever the reason why you think someone should fight that reason should apply to you. What the guy next to you has in mind when fighting shouldn't change anything.

(This guy is a gold mine)
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/hareidi-hasbara

This is pretty spot on.
Still have something nagging in my mind but don't have time to write it now.