Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[EliJelly]

1) Whether Arabs are running around Yerushalayim or shooting rockets from other countries, the danger is real and present and soldiers are needed.

2) If the concern is learning, there are plenty of able-bodied young men who aren't learning.

3) If the concern is Yiddishe values, there are plenty of frum soldiers who stay frum in the army.

Saying there is no answer or solution is simply not true. You can say it is a daunting task. You can say you don't know how it will be accomplished. But they aren't even trying.

It seems that the Lubavitch approach is that non learning boys should indeed join the army. Is that the case? Have they established the framework for that?

[imayid2]

Ok, but that is because of the spiritual dangers, which would depend on one’s opinion if there is what to work on to improve that aspect.

[EliJelly]

Ok, but that is because of the spiritual dangers, which would depend on one’s opinion if there is what to work on to improve that aspect.

There is no source from the Chazon Ish that this is even something to be worked on.

[imayid2]

There is no source from the Chazon Ish that this is even something to be worked on.

True

[Just A Jew]

It seems that the Lubavitch approach is that non learning boys should indeed join the army. Is that the case? Have they established the framework for that?

I don't believe that Lubavitch in Israel is vocal about it one way or the other. At the end of the day, Lubavitchers have served in the army since 1948, and continue to do so in not insignificant numbers. The Rebbe's view was posted above, although IINM there is much more nuance, as well as individualized advice, if you delve more deeply.

[EliJelly]

I don't believe that Lubavitch in Israel is vocal about it one way or the other. At the end of the day, Lubavitchers have served in the army since 1948, and continue to do so in not insignificant numbers. The Rebbe's view was posted above, although IINM there is much more nuance, as well as individualized advice, if you delve more deeply.

In what capacity have they/do they serve? Are there dedicated divisions for them, or do they serve in the regular army, or maybe in the Hesder battalions?

[AsherO]

In what capacity have they/do they serve? Are there dedicated divisions for them, or do they serve in the regular army, or maybe in the Hesder battalions?

There’s no system/path, the ones who enlist do their own thing. I have a Chabad relative who got an (electrical?) engineering degree as part of his service in some sorta special technical unit.

[EliJelly]

There’s no system/path, the ones who enlist do their own thing. I have a Chabad relative who got an (electrical?) engineering degree as part of his service in some sorta special technical unit.

What are the results there? When pushing for a solution that non learning frum boys should be able to serve. Seems that Lubavitch have tried that. Not DL or mizrachi boys, but chassidsh boys who serve. Perhaps use that as model if that worked out. Or maybe it didn't?

[imayid2]

I’ve seen this claim a lot
https://iyun.org.il/en/sedersheni/charedi-army-service-a-matter-of-jewish-belonging/

The truth is that we had it coming. Rabbi Elazar Menachem Shach, the mythological leader who presided over Haredi society for the final three decades of the twentieth century, would repeatedly emphasize that those who are not full-time Torah students belong in the IDF. “The right given to yeshiva students of deferring their enlistment into the army,” he wrote in a letter from 1980 on behalf of Vaad Hayeshivos (the formal body responsible for liaising between the army and yeshiva institutions), “is contingent on his study being his sole occupation. He must not be engaged in any material pursuits, whether during yeshiva hours or outside of them.” Torah leaders made similar statements up to and including Rabbi Aharon Leib Steinman (in 1983).

Anyone who “abuses this right,” wrote Rabbi Yechezkel Abramski a decade earlier, is considered a rodef (a “pursuer”) of those yeshiva students who study Torah diligently: the fact that non-Torah students receive deferrals undermines the foundation on which the exemptions stand. In this spirit, he instructed heads of yeshiva institutions “to conduct a strict vetting of students and remove from their ranks any student whose Torah is not his sole occupation.” Orchos Rabbeinu likewise cites the Steipler (Rabbi Yaakov Yisrael Kanievsky) as emphasizing that “those who are registered in yeshiva, allowing them exemption from the army even as they engage in gainful employment, are absolute rodfim.”

My understanding is that Rav Shach did advise, at times, those that weren’t learning full time to join the army.

[gozalim]

There’s no system/path, the ones who enlist do their own thing. I have a Chabad relative who got an (electrical?) engineering degree as part of his service in some sorta special technical unit.

Also, for the most part, Chabad bochurim are learning until a year or so after marriage (a few years after standard conscription age). at that point, 1. the army chooses to have them do a shorter service  2. while no man is immune, they are considerably more 'stabilised' from a religious perspective

[yfr bachur]

If learning is the real reason, then there must be an acknowledgement that those who aren't learning must serve. If that's the case, efforts must be made to make that happen. Are there concerns? Sure! Address them. Work on finding solutions. But... that isn't happening here.

If the real reason is we're concerned people will go OTD, stop blaming everyone ditching the army on Hashem's Torah. Focus on the issue and deal with it.

This is the elephant in the room that all the cha-cha EC... is avoiding.
You conflate the issues and end up with an intellectually dishonest (and damaging!) debate.

[EliJelly]

Also, for the most part, Chabad bochurim are learning until a year or so after marriage (a few years after standard conscription age). at that point, 1. the army chooses to have them do a shorter service  2. while no man is immune, they are considerably more 'stabilised' from a religious perspective

True for married ones, what about non learning bochurim? do they serve, do they use the ben yeshiva petor or are non learning bochurim simply non existent?

[EliJelly]

This is the elephant in the room that all the cha-cha EC... is avoiding.
You conflate the issues and end up with an intellectually dishonest (and damaging!) debate.

You should watch your rebbe's take on the matter posted above. There is no real solution to serve in a true Torah following way under a secular army with total different priorities but just a stated promise to "accommodate" or make it work. There will always be two different priorities and who has the last word. The current army chaplains or rabbanut rabbis are nodding their heads on what the generals tell them are matters of pikuch nefesh etc. Genuine independent poskim will never just take their word for it of course and it will lead to all sorts of problems and frictions. I think it's the other way around, in order not to upset the powers and public they're beating around the bush by coming up with "we do the Torah part" stuff. (Which of course those who aren't here to benefit from state or appease them have no need for all dishonest excuses.)

[aygart]

Rabbi Elazar Menachem Shach, the mythological leader

Hmmmm

[mevinyavin]

-There is no real solution to serve in a true Torah following way under a secular army with total different priorities but just a stated promise to "accommodate" or make it work. There will always be two different priorities and who has the last word. The current army chaplains or rabbanut rabbis are nodding their heads on what the generals tell them are matters of pikuch nefesh etc. Genuine independent poskim will never just take their word for it of course and it will lead to all sorts of problems and frictions.

This.
The primary nafka minah is that the Charedi Rabbonim who send their constituents to serve - Mizrachim and similar - consider it important enough to compromise on this matter. Whereas, the Rabbonim that the Bnei Torah subscribe to (the ones that say "the biggest batlan shouldn't serve" for example) do not consider the matzav important enough to compromise on this.
Sigh... It would be absolutely lovely if there could be more tocho k'baro - more consistency in action - than there is. You can't say the army (the Chareid sections) is bad and then wander around Yafo because you are bored. But even when there isn't, it does not change the situation on the ground from the perspective of the gedolim.
As @yfr bachur said, a completely separate army run by poskim of their ilk (without doing more than taking advice from the generals, deciding on their own re: kashrus, Shabbos and shmiras enayim) is the only way it could work.

Lastly, no one can claim that they would know how a Gadol would think about any matter without explicitly asking them. Quoting the previous gedolim (regardless of shita) and applying them to today's situation is irresponsible. Let the current Gedolim do that.

[AsherO]

What are the results there? When pushing for a solution that non learning frum boys should be able to serve. Seems that Lubavitch have tried that. Not DL or mizrachi boys, but chassidsh boys who serve. Perhaps use that as model if that worked out. Or maybe it didn't?

AFAIK Lubavitch never tired this in any significant way. I don’t think the outcomes are uniform, and a lot about how the guy came out has to do with how he went in, so guys who went in on the fringe would be more likely to come out OTD (which might very well have happened without the Army too).

[Yehuda57]

There is no real solution to serve in a true Torah following way under a secular army with total different priorities but just a stated promise to "accommodate" or make it work.

Picture the guy getting served a half frozen half scalding airline meal at a 5 start dinner and the host proudly gushing to the crowd, "See? We want everyone to be comfortable so we accommodated his kosher requirements!"

[Yehuda57]

AFAIK Lubavitch never tired this in any significant way. I don’t think the outcomes are uniform, and a lot about how the guy came out has to do with how he went in, so guys who went in on the fringe would be more likely to come out OTD (which might very well have happened without the Army too).

I have no knowledge of Israelis who are drafted, but anecdotally, Americans who go as lone soldiers tend to be already leaning OTD* and the army often helps bring them back. Though this may be more to do with discipline and focus rather than religious ideology.

*I'm loathe to use the term to describe individuals, but for the purposes of understandable conversation....

[imayid2]

There are two separate (but overlapping) issues.
1.The ptur for bnei Yeshiva
2. Boys who aren’t learning full time.

Number 1 was the focus of the Torah world of the past, and there will never be compromise on it. It’s the fabric of Judaism, in their opinion.

Number 2 has various different viewpoints. How to properly deal with weaker boys has always been a challenge for the yeshiva system. There are plenty of people who’d be willing to talk about this more seriously.

However, it’s irrelevant. The current laws don’t allow for the historic ptur for bnei yeshiva at all.

[imayid2]

Kashrus professionals that I’ve spoken to who met with the army representatives were very impressed.