Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[AsherO]

There are two separate (but overlapping) issues.
1.The ptur for bnei Yeshiva
2. Boys who aren’t learning full time.

Number 1 was the focus of the Torah world of the past, and there will never be compromise on it. It’s the fabric of Judaism, in their opinion.

Number 2 has various different viewpoints. How to properly deal with weaker boys has always been a challenge for the yeshiva system. There are plenty of people who’d be willing to talk about this more seriously.

However, it’s irrelevant. The current laws don’t allow for the historic ptur for bnei yeshiva at all.

If #2 could be sorted to all parties’ satisfaction, it would more than fill IDF’s current capacity to draft Haredis. This could be leveraged into a bill that would codify exemptions for #1 and army service for #2.

[yfr bachur]

You should watch your rebbe's take on the matter posted above. There is no real solution to serve in a true Torah following way under a secular army with total different priorities but just a stated promise to "accommodate" or make it work. There will always be two different priorities and who has the last word. The current army chaplains or rabbanut rabbis are nodding their heads on what the generals tell them are matters of pikuch nefesh etc. Genuine independent poskim will never just take their word for it of course and it will lead to all sorts of problems and frictions. I think it's the other way around, in order not to upset the powers and public they're beating around the bush by coming up with "we do the Torah part" stuff. (Which of course those who aren't here to benefit from state or appease them have no need for all dishonest excuses.)

This.
The primary nafka minah is that the Charedi Rabbonim who send their constituents to serve - Mizrachim and similar - consider it important enough to compromise on this matter. Whereas, the Rabbonim that the Bnei Torah subscribe to (the ones that say "the biggest batlan shouldn't serve" for example) do not consider the matzav important enough to compromise on this.
Sigh... It would be absolutely lovely if there could be more tocho k'baro - more consistency in action - than there is. You can't say the army (the Chareid sections) is bad and then wander around Yafo because you are bored. But even when there isn't, it does not change the situation on the ground from the perspective of the gedolim.
As @yfr bachur said, a completely separate army run by poskim of their ilk (without doing more than taking advice from the generals, deciding on their own re: kashrus, Shabbos and shmiras enayim) is the only way it could work.

Lastly, no one can claim that they would know how a Gadol would think about any matter without explicitly asking them. Quoting the previous gedolim (regardless of shita) and applying them to today's situation is irresponsible. Let the current Gedolim do that.

First of all, I should just make clear that I used the word "talmid" in the context of that I went to his Motzei Shabbos shiurim for 5+ years and was pretty close with him in that context. He is not my primary rebbe (like @mevinyavin has with RYBs), nor the Rebbe I go to for Hashkafa etc...

That being said...
We've gotten to the crux(es?) of the issue.
There are two separate charedi points of objection to serving. A. Yeshiva Bachurim, who toraso umnaso... should be exempt as their learning as they are bringing major zechusim that protect the entire nation. B. Those who are not TUM... can't possibly serve in the tomei shmad army that has no respect for torah/halacha.
What's the difference between the Chareidi points and the DL/Mizrachi/Chardal (meaning the frumest ones who respect learning) who don't have these issues? Ideology vis a vis how you view the state, the yishuv, Zionism etc.

The problem is that the mainstream charedi today is too scared (or embarrassed) to say this, as he is too chicken to risk getting the monetary faucet turned off. I'll have the monetary debate with @Moshe Green in another thread (which we should start soon  ), but the point is that they know that they are getting major funding from the Medina and don't want to give it up. I doubt they would agree to no funding for child daycare in return for exemptions.

So we are left to trot out platitudes about Torah Magna Umatzla, but not at the expense of my Bein Hazmanim (which BTW is just a cultural thing, You don't NEED 3+3+4 bein Hazmanim, you are just used to it and when it gets taken away you feel stolen from, but if the norm would be for shorter bein hazmanim, we would all get used to it and be just fine... as every american ben torah who started off in a full summer off yeshiva is once he gets to a Tisha Bav-RCH Elul yeshiva) in defence of the non service of burger flippers and street kids... which is mechalel the name of the true Maamidei Haolam... and causes the secular+ to believe that we are just making bad faith claims and demands (which in fact we may be....)

[yfr bachur]

Kashrus professionals that I’ve spoken to who met with the army representatives were very impressed.

In what way?

[AsherO]

In what way?

Kashrus, ostensibly

[imayid2]

In what way?

Particularly at their attitude, which was very much “we want to do this right” and their commitment to work towards what’s necessary.

[aygart]

If #2 could be sorted to all parties’ satisfaction, it would more than fill IDF’s current capacity to draft Haredis. This could be leveraged into a bill that would codify exemptions for #1 and army service for #2.

Part of the issue here is that, in classic Israeli style, each side feels the other should be happy with the accommodation they made and each side feels the other's accommodation doesn't help them at all.

[Just A Jew]

Part of the issue here is that, in classic Israeli style, each side feels the other should be happy with the accommodation they made and each side feels the other's accommodation doesn't help them at all.

I think the issue is that it's being looked at as "accomodation" instead of a common goal. It boils down to hashkafa. Do the hashkafik leaders (call them Gedolim, Rabbanim, Poskim, Rebbes, what have you) really feel frum Jews have an obligation to serve in the army, or are they just trying to pacify "the other side" so they can move on with what's really important to them?

[imayid2]

I think the issue is that it's being looked at as "accomodation" instead of a common goal. It boils down to hashkafa. Do the hashkafik leaders (call them Gedolim, Rabbanim, Poskim, Rebbes, what have you) really feel frum Jews have an obligation to serve in the army, or are they just trying to pacify "the other side" so they can move on with what's really important to them?

They are not monolithic. You’re going to have an array of views.

[imayid2]

Do the hashkafik leaders (call them Gedolim, Rabbanim, Poskim, Rebbes, what have you) really feel frum Jews have an obligation to serve in the army

BTW if there is an “obligation” because Jews need to be protected etc, shouldn’t that apply just as equally to American Jews?

[Just A Jew]

They are not monolithic. You’re going to have an array of views.

100%, as in almost every other halacha/hashkafa issue. This is part of my frustration. The nuance is completely gone from the conversation. Break down the issues, break down the different opinions, and deal with them one by one. Instead, we have convoluted blanket positions which conflate all the different issues and opinions, which furthers the divide in Israel and makes life harder for everyone.

[Just A Jew]

BTW if there is an “obligation” because Jews need to be protected etc, shouldn’t that apply just as equally to American Jews?

Possibly, but not necessarily. You'll pull 25 sources for all sides of the argument, but this isn't my area of expertise. It's a good question which should be asked and answered.

[mevinyavin]

The nuance is completely gone from the conversation.

A common problem these days.

[imayid2]

Possibly, but not necessarily. You'll pull 25 sources for all sides of the argument, but this isn't my area of expertise. It's a good question which should be asked and answered.

My sense is that the “chareidy world” never subscribed to the value of living in EY enough that it would be worthwhile to need to spend time in the army in perpetual wars. They stayed because enough others were subscribed to that.

At this point they are a bit stuck there, sort of hard to relocate everyone at this point.

[Just A Jew]

My sense is that the “chareidy world” never subscribed to the value of living in EY enough that it would be worthwhile to need to spend time in the army in perpetual wars. They stayed because enough others were subscribed to that.

At this point they are a bit stuck there, sort of hard to relocate everyone at this point.

I'm not sure why that's a factor. The reality is that they do live there. Half of the world's Jews live there. The physical danger isn't disputable. The need for protection isn't disputable. The who, how, and other details need to be hammered out.

[imayid2]

I'm not sure why that's a factor. The reality is that they do live there. Half of the world's Jews live there. The physical danger isn't disputable. The need for protection isn't disputable. The who, how, and other details need to be hammered out.

Well yes, at this point. But it’s a major factor in the attitude.

Technically your point would be the same there was a full fledged war between Mexico and the U.S. and there was a need for more manpower.

[AsherO]

They are not monolithic. You’re going to have an array of views.

To whatever extent they see it as an obligation, it doesn’t seem they’re doing enough to figure out how to fulfill it.

[Just A Jew]

A common problem these days.

While I'm generally frustrated by this in life, there are certain circumstances which make me want to bang my head against a wall. In the frum world, where we argue that our learning gives us advanced skills in analytical and nuanced thinking, you would think we'd be better than this. I know, high and unreasonable expectations. Personal problem.

[AsherO]

Well yes, at this point. But it’s a major factor in the attitude.

Technically your point would be the same there was a full fledged war between Mexico and the U.S. and there was a need for more manpower.

In many cases observant Jews did serve in the armies of their host countries when that was the situation.

[Just A Jew]

Well yes, at this point. But it’s a major factor in the attitude.

Technically your point would be the same there was a full fledged war between Mexico and the U.S. and there was a need for more manpower.

Some of my point would be the same. Some of it would change, depending on the risk to Jewish lives, which changes the halachik equation.

But yes, my point is that in Yiddishkeit, both hashkafically and halachically, we deal with current realities, not historical what ifs which have no bearing on the current situation.

[imayid2]

In many cases observant Jews did serve in the armies of their host countries when that was the situation.

Overwhelming, they sought to avoid it.