Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[imayid2]

Some of my point would be the same. Some of it would change, depending on the risk to Jewish lives, which changes the halachik equation.

But yes, my point is that in Yiddishkeit, both hashkafically and halachically, we deal with current realities, not historical what ifs which have no bearing on the current situation.

At this point it does not seem that there is an acute risk of life by the chareidim not joining. Rather a complaint of an unfair burden carried by other who need to compensate.

So it’s important to understand that hashkafa which is a factor for why they don’t actively seek to be more involved in the defense of the country.

[imayid2]

To whatever extent they see it as an obligation, it doesn’t seem they’re doing enough to figure out how to fulfill it.

Clearly, there are very few who firmly believe in the factors at play translating into a pure “halachik obligation”of serving to the extent that there is an imperative to make it more compatible.

That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be at play as part of a compromise.

[gozalim]

At this point it does not seem that there is an acute risk of life by the chareidim not joining. Rather a complaint of an unfair burden carried by other who need to compensate.

now may actually be one of those few instances where a few more thousand manpower would make an actual pikuach nefesh difference.
(necessary military actions being delayed due to manpower shortages/inability to hold current reserves for even longer).
That said, to claim that the current attack is a good faith expression of that would be giving it more credit than is due.
(they've always wanted to push this issue, and are just taking the opportunity now)

[shulem92]

*I'm loathe to use the term to describe individuals, but for the purposes of understandable conversation....

https://www.dictionary.com/e/loath-vs-loathe/

[yfr bachur]

now may actually be one of those few instances where a few more thousand manpower would make an actual pikuach nefesh difference.
(necessary military actions being delayed due to manpower shortages/inability to hold current reserves for even longer).
That said, to claim that the current attack is a good faith expression of that would be giving it more credit than is due.
(they've always wanted to push this issue, and are just taking the opportunity now)

So we can all say that Ehud Baraks small smart army theories are wrong and caused combat manpower shortages... so change the planning going forward.

With regard to the chareidi view vis a vie the state and the "obligation" of the army, I would recommend that people have a look at chapter 16 in the artscroll biography of the Chazon Ish, especially the first few pages. If you can get ahold of the relevant chapters in Pe'er Hador that would be good too.

[AsherO]

Overwhelming, they sought to avoid it.

Would you say it was because of Torah study or avoiding assimilation? My guess is it had most to do with staying alive, cannon fodder was a thing those days.

[mevinyavin]

While I'm generally frustrated by this in life, there are certain circumstances which make me want to bang my head against a wall. In the frum world, where we argue that our learning gives us advanced skills in analytical and nuanced thinking, you would think we'd be better than this. I know, high and unreasonable expectations. Personal problem.

I used to assume the frum world was better. Then COVID-19 happened and suddenly that lack of nuance was everywhere everywhere. The frum world IS indeed better but there are plenty with a lack of that nuance by us, too.

[imayid2]

Would you say it was because of Torah study or avoiding assimilation? My guess is it had most to do with staying alive, cannon fodder was a thing those days.

I would imagine that the lack of “patriotism”, willing to put one’s life on the line for the country, played a big role. More religious Jews always saw the country as secondary to their religious and insular lifestyle. This wax a constant complaint against them by the non Jews.

[EliJelly]

I would imagine that the lack of “patriotism”, willing to put one’s life on the line for the country, played a big role. More religious Jews always saw the country as secondary to their religious and insular lifestyle. This wax a constant complaint against them by the non Jews.

Plus many of these wars were just medieval nation conquering or whims of crowned and bejeweled idiots.

[gozalim]

Would you say it was because of Torah study or avoiding assimilation? My guess is it had most to do with staying alive, cannon fodder was a thing those days.

in most cases was cannon fodder, plus completely impossible to keep judaism (not even getting into the Czar's cantonists, which were actively designed for that purpose)

[Ergel]

I doubt they would agree to no funding for child daycare in return for exemptions.

This is a fascinating question. I wonder what the leadership would say if that was on the table

[imayid2]

1. Is this war a milchemes mitzvah (based on the Rambam, I don't see how the answer could not be yes...but I'm willing to hear) - and if so why does it not have a din of אפילו כלה מחפתה

Another important point about this:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/10-myths-about-charedim-and-army

Myth #6: “According to the majority of rabbinic authorities, it is indeed a milchemes mitzvah!!”

FACT: This is probably untrue, but in any case, it is dishonest posturing since according to the majority of rabbinic authorities, Torah scholars are exempt, whatever the status of the milchama is.

Just saw this interesting letter Rav Kook sent to England to implore those there to help yeshiva students get exemptions to the draft:

[yelped]

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/community/articles/idf-new-recruits-haredi-men

[LongTimeLurker]

There's also a 30 second video meant for WhatsApp statuses but I can't figure out how to upload

[Ergel]

Another important point about this:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/10-myths-about-charedim-and-army

Source? I can write facts on the internet as well. And if I write it bombastically and throw in ad hominem attacks, even better

[Ergel]

1 this teshuva is talking about finding cures for diseases?!?? Not for joining a secular army!

You are great at creating strawmen. Rav Shlomo Zalman is clear that you don't need a melech/sanhedrin for milchemes mitzvah. I never said he says you need to join a secular army.

3 I don’t live there yet. I’ve been there recently though. Going to hostage square is not nosa bol. It is something blev

Another strawman. WHo said anything about going to hostage square. And it's not just something blev

4 of course there are breaks in the army. Some stints have been longer recently, but nobody is in active battle for a year straight.
Plus the breaks that are needed for Bnei yeshiva are not decided on based on what other people do or need

And who says bnei yeshiva need 3+3+4? Just because it's like that, doesn't mean it has to be correct.

[EliJelly]

The מתיוונים have turned to plagiarizing this time around

[imayid2]

Source?

I posted a source, did you read it?

[mevinyavin]

And who says bnei yeshiva need 3+3+4? Just because it's like that, doesn't mean it has to be correct.

Since this has already been mentioned a few times:
We haven't had 3+3+4 since the war started, by the way.

[yfr bachur]

Since this has already been mentioned a few times:
We haven't had 3+3+4 since the war started, by the way.

Depends which yeshiva.

The מתיוונים have turned to plagiarizing this time around

Um, in which context exactly was mi lashem eilai not a call to literally take up arms?