Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[sds1493]

Just saw this interesting letter Rav Kook sent to England to implore those there to help yeshiva students get exemptions to the draft:

Do you have the rest of the letter?
At the end he defines a תלמיד חכם as someone who is תורתו אומנותו. This has morphed to someone connected with the חרדי world.

[imayid2]

Do you have the rest of the letter?

Worth the read:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SYvx6551iwSGpRK76Wdu1QttWftr0leo/view?usp=drivesdk

At the end he defines a תלמיד חכם as someone who is תורתו אומנותו. This has morphed to someone connected with the חרדי world.

This has nothing to do with the point I was addressing. As I’ve noted, many Gedolim were vehemently opposed to the ptur being utilized by those not learning full time.

[aygart]

Um, in which context exactly was mi lashem eilai not a call to literally take up arms?

To uphold the torah not to take people away from it

[yfr bachur]

To uphold the torah not to take people away from it

+1mil
Though if all they take are working charedim...

[aygart]

+1mil
Though if all they take are working charedim...

There seem to be many who feel that it has similar effects on working guys.

[yfr bachur]

There seem to be many who feel that it has similar effects on working guys.

That's not fair.
This is a BRIGADE (1000-3000 soldiers) set up for charedim, no comparison to other smaller formations tried in the past

[aygart]

That's not fair.
This is a BRIGADE (1000-3000 soldiers) set up for charedim, no comparison to other smaller formations tried in the past

Possibly. How it turns out in the end remains to be seen.

[yfr bachur]

Possibly. How it turns out in the end remains to be seen.

If they can convince the Eida to give the hechsher on the food... then it might stand a chance.

[sds1493]

Worth the read:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SYvx6551iwSGpRK76Wdu1QttWftr0leo/view?usp=drivesdk
This has nothing to do with the point I was addressing. As I’ve noted, many Gedolim were vehemently opposed to the ptur being utilized by those not learning full time.

Fascinating. Thanks for sharing.
What was interesting to me was his definition of תורתו אומנותו doesn't preclude working, as long as the work is כדי פרנסתו ולא להתעשר, i.e. every spare moment is spent learning.

[AsherO]

If they can convince the Eida to give the hechsher on the food... then it might stand a chance.

This is what’s going to determine if they stay frum or not?

[Just A Jew]

This is what’s going to determine if they stay frum or not?

Absolutely! The path to hell is lined with hechsheirim that aren't Eida.

[yfr bachur]

This is what’s going to determine if they stay frum or not?

No, (and not even the eida specifically, just it is the most widely accepted of the frumy mehadrin hechsherim) but If they dont get a hechsher accepted as mehadrin in the charedi world on the food, it's doomed from the start - it is quite the siman how much they are really trying to accommodate Chareidi needs, and how much is lip service. (This is without criticizing the army rabbanut, I just dont see the Chareidi world accepting their word that the kashrus is mehadrin to chareidi standards.)

(Anyway, who doesnt see the humor in the army coming to the Eida Hachareidis and asking them to give a hechsher on the tumadike tzovo?)

[AsherO]

I agree that the Kashrus level is an indication (siman) of how suitable the conditions will be.

[Ver hut gazugt]

No, (and not even the eida specifically, just it is the most widely accepted of the frumy mehadrin hechsherim) but If they dont get a hechsher accepted as mehadrin in the charedi world on the food, it's doomed from the start - it is quite the siman how much they are really trying to accommodate Chareidi needs, and how much is lip service. (This is without criticizing the army rabbanut, I just dont see the Chareidi world accepting their word that the kashrus is mehadrin to chareidi standards.)

(Anyway, who doesnt see the humor in the army coming to the Eida Hachareidis and asking them to give a hechsher on the tumadike tzovo?)

I though the original post was a joke.

[Proisrael]

If the army decided to stop defending Charedi cities and allowed them to be swallowed by the Palestinian Authority would things change? Imagine tomorrow morning they give back Neve Yaakov Malot Dafna Ramat Eshkol Ramot etc....They put one of those big red signs in front and gave it full access to the PA.

[yfr bachur]

If the army decided to stop defending Charedi cities and allowed them to be swallowed by the Palestinian Authority would things change? Imagine tomorrow morning they give back Neve Yaakov Malot Dafna Ramat Eshkol Ramot etc....They put one of those big red signs in front and gave it full access to the PA.

That is a disgusting (antisemitic?) undemocratic post.
Also I take issue with your language. It's not "give back", as if we stole them fro  the arabs. these are our lands given to us by the Rbsh"o.

[Moshe Green]

If the army decided to stop defending Charedi cities and allowed them to be swallowed by the Palestinian Authority would things change? Imagine tomorrow morning they give back Neve Yaakov Malot Dafna Ramat Eshkol Ramot etc....They put one of those big red signs in front and gave it full access to the PA.

Gimmee a break...

Imagine someone shleps their friend into a bear cave against his will and promises to protect him with his gun. The next day, he decides that he doesn't want to be on guard all the time and tells his friend to "hold the fort". "Nope, not interested", says his friend, "I don't even want to be here". "Well, if I stop protecting you then the bear will kill us so you have to take a turn..."

The Jews in the Arab areas were on OK terms with their neighbors until the Zionists came along. Yes there was a pogrom here or there (BTW, the Chevron massacre was instigated by the Zionists...) but Jews pretty much lived in harmony, not unlike the Jews in Morocco today. Nothing like a threat to wipe out all Jews like we see today and the senseless attacks on Jews all over the war, like unfortunately R' Kagan. The Zionists even assassinated Jacob DeHann (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Isra%C3%ABl_de_Haan) because he was trying to make peace amongst the old Yishuv and the Arabs.

The Zionists made the mess, they can clean it up. Leave the Chareidim out of it...

[LongTimeLurker]

Gimmee a break...

Imagine someone shleps their friend into a bear cave against his will and promises to protect him with his gun. The next day, he decides that he doesn't want to be on guard all the time and tells his friend to "hold the fort". "Nope, not interested", says his friend, "I don't even want to be here". "Well, if I stop protecting you then the bear will kill us so you have to take a turn..."

The Jews in the Arab areas were on OK terms with their neighbors until the Zionists came along. Yes there was a pogrom here or there (BTW, the Chevron massacre was instigated by the Zionists...) but Jews pretty much lived in harmony, not unlike the Jews in Morocco today. Nothing like a threat to wipe out all Jews like we see today and the senseless attacks on Jews all over the war, like unfortunately R' Kagan. The Zionists even assassinated Jacob DeHann (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Isra%C3%ABl_de_Haan) because he was trying to make peace amongst the old Yishuv and the Arabs.

The Zionists made the mess, they can clean it up. Leave the Chareidim out of it...

Ah yes Jews have always lived in peace with their muslim neighbors and everything is the Zionists' fault. You sound like an abused spouse.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar
https://www.fondapol.org/en/study/pogroms-in-palestine-before-the-creation-of-the-state-of-israel-1830-1948/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1912_Fez_riots


Jews in Morocco were forced to convert or die as early as the 11th century ." Instead, the Almohads forced Jews to choose between conversion to Islam or death, compelling many Jews to convert, or at least pretend" cf wiki
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Morocco

I'm sure the inquisition was Ben gurions fault too? And Josephus surrender and going over to the Romans is because he worked for the Jewish Agency

[Moshe Green]

Ah yes Jews have always lived in peace with their muslim neighbors and everything is the Zionists' fault. You sound like an abused spouse.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar
https://www.fondapol.org/en/study/pogroms-in-palestine-before-the-creation-of-the-state-of-israel-1830-1948/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1912_Fez_riots


Jews in Morocco were forced to convert or die as early as the 11th century ." Instead, the Almohads forced Jews to choose between conversion to Islam or death, compelling many Jews to convert, or at least pretend" cf wiki
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Morocco

I'm sure the inquisition was Ben gurions fault too? And Josephus surrender and going over to the Romans is because he worked for the Jewish Agency

You didn't answer my point. You just quoted Muhammed from 1500 years ago and mentioned a few places where a few 100's of Jews were killed. Yes, 10,000 Jews killed over 1000 years is, unfortunately, considered peaceful compared to...
10,000 soldiers and many thousands of civilians have been killed in just 75 years in Israel from all the wars and terror attacks.... and the threat of rockets, missiles, suicide bombers, and even nuclear attacks is forever hovering over all Jews in EY.

How many Jews have been killed in anti-Semitic attacks in the rest of the world over the last 75 years?

[yfr bachur]

Or the truth is somewhere in between.
Jews did not have the easiest life under moslem rule, though way better than in poland,
And Zionists did make a mess, demanding a state rather than some other accommodation that wouldnt have ended up with self rule.

To make it out as the chareidi point of view is totaly unfounded by history is either ignorant or willfully blind