Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[yelped]

Gimmee a break...

Imagine someone shleps their friend into a bear cave against his will and promises to protect him with his gun. The next day, he decides that he doesn't want to be on guard all the time and tells his friend to "hold the fort". "Nope, not interested", says his friend, "I don't even want to be here". "Well, if I stop protecting you then the bear will kill us so you have to take a turn..."

The Jews in the Arab areas were on OK terms with their neighbors until the Zionists came along. Yes there was a pogrom here or there (BTW, the Chevron massacre was instigated by the Zionists...) but Jews pretty much lived in harmony, not unlike the Jews in Morocco today. Nothing like a threat to wipe out all Jews like we see today and the senseless attacks on Jews all over the war, like unfortunately R' Kagan. The Zionists even assassinated Jacob DeHann (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Isra%C3%ABl_de_Haan) because he was trying to make peace amongst the old Yishuv and the Arabs.

The Zionists made the mess, they can clean it up. Leave the Chareidim out of it...

Baloney. Don't dress up the reality to fit your predefined fantasy.

[yfr bachur]

Baloney. Don't dress up the reality to fit your predefined fantasy.

Its the view of the chazon ish. See the book I recommended earlier
At least the

The Zionists made the mess, they can clean it up. Leave the Chareidim out of it...

[aygart]

Gimmee a break...

Imagine someone shleps their friend into a bear cave against his will and promises to protect him with his gun. The next day, he decides that he doesn't want to be on guard all the time and tells his friend to "hold the fort". "Nope, not interested", says his friend, "I don't even want to be here". "Well, if I stop protecting you then the bear will kill us so you have to take a turn..."

The Jews in the Arab areas were on OK terms with their neighbors until the Zionists came along. Yes there was a pogrom here or there (BTW, the Chevron massacre was instigated by the Zionists...) but Jews pretty much lived in harmony, not unlike the Jews in Morocco today. Nothing like a threat to wipe out all Jews like we see today and the senseless attacks on Jews all over the war, like unfortunately R' Kagan. The Zionists even assassinated Jacob DeHann (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Isra%C3%ABl_de_Haan) because he was trying to make peace amongst the old Yishuv and the Arabs.

The Zionists made the mess, they can clean it up. Leave the Chareidim out of it...

Or the truth is somewhere in between.
Jews did not have the easiest life under moslem rule, though way better than in poland,
And Zionists did make a mess, demanding a state rather than some other accommodation that wouldnt have ended up with self rule.

To make it out as the chareidi point of view is unfounded by history is either ignorantor willfully blind

What percentage of the current chareidi community is from the yishuv ahyoshon and what percentage came along with the zionists?

[yelped]

Its the view of the chazon ish. See the book I recommended earlier
At least the

An excuse for antisemitism is not a teretz for antisemitism.

[yfr bachur]

What percentage of the current chareidi community is from the yishuv ahyoshon and what percentage came along with the zionists?

Whats the nafka mina?

An excuse for antisemitism is not a teretz for antisemitism.

I have no idea what you mean

[aygart]

Whats the nafka mina?

The reasoning only holds true if they were truly there relatively peacefully without the zionists and then the zionist came and ruined everything. If the only way they are there is because of the zionists then they don'e have much of a complaint.

[yfr bachur]

The reasoning only holds true if they were truly there relatively peacefully without the zionists and then the zionist came and ruined everything. If the only way they are there is because of the zionists then they don'e have much of a complaint.

The ottomans didnt allow immigrants?

[aygart]

The ottomans didnt allow immigrants?

I understand that my post is not going to cover every single individual. The Chazon Ish didn't come as part of the yishuv hachadash but joined it to fix it up. Even so, the majority who came at the time came to be a part of the yishuv created by the zionists working towards a future state and were not similar to the one off immigrants who came over the previous hundreds of years. This is, of course, a spectrum. Those who came as part of the zionist organized immigration waves ("1st-4th Aliya") cannot complain about the zionist ruining their "peace" considering that they were very much a part of those zionists.
Those coming after the establishment of the state also have a very limited claim in that regard.

[AsherO]

Baloney. Don't dress up the reality to fit your predefined fantasy.

Wdym? “The world was a safe place for Jews before Zionism” 

[aygart]

Wdym? “The world was a safe place for Jews before Zionism” 

The Arab world was definitely a safer place for Jews than it is now, or at least pre-Abraham Accords.

[zh cohen]

How many Jews have been killed in anti-Semitic attacks in the rest of the world over the last 75 years?

Why are you making the cut-off at 75 years? An even 100 would be more logical...

[AsherO]

The reasoning only holds true if they were truly there relatively peacefully without the zionists and then the zionist came and ruined everything. If the only way they are there is because of the zionists then they don'e have much of a complaint.

Many came in the 20s/30s to escape Europe, but were coming to a reality already developing in EY. Was just reading a book over Shabbos about Jews who literally had their lives saved by Zionists who boated them from Central Europe during the holocaust who had zero respect for the Zionists saving their skins.

[AsherO]

Why are you making the cut-off at 75 years? An even 100 would be more logical...

Don’t worry, there are rationalizations for Churban Europa as well…

[aygart]

Many came in the 20s/30s to escape Europe, but were coming to a reality already developing in EY. Was just reading a book over Shabbos about Jews who literally had their lives saved by Zionists who boated them from Central Europe during the holocaust who had zero respect for the Zionists saving their skins.

Bottom line is that, like most issues

Or the truth is somewhere in between.

[Definitions2]

The Zionists made the mess, they can clean it up. Leave the Chareidim out of it...

Those people aren't alive to clean anything up. Children don't have achrayis on their parents actions.

[aygart]

Those people aren't alive to clean anything up. Children don't have achrayis on their parents actions.

Does that create a moral obligation on those who whose ancestors were pulled into the mess?

[Definitions2]

No then the claim sounds right. Your mess you clean up. And if they weren't able to clean up and required extra help to clean anything up they'd be liable to make payments for services rendered - if possible at all.

Eta Wait I misunderstood your question. That doesn't create a moral obligation. The moral obligation is there as long as the current residents want to stay there

[EliJelly]

And Zionists did make a mess, demanding a state

Good, so leave the RBSO out of this. When He gives, He gives the right way (very soon!), when Ben Gurion and Herzl defy his decree and come up with this brilliant idea to establish the "safe haven" for Jews amongst a billion animals thinking we're taking away something from them, we end up with these results.

these are our lands given to us by the Rbsh"o.

[EliJelly]

https://rebgershonribner.com/the-powerful-force-of-anti-semitism-unleashed-by-the-zionist-movement

[aygart]

No then the claim sounds right. Your mess you clean up. And if they weren't able to clean up and required extra help to clean anything up they'd be liable to make payments for services rendered - if possible at all.

Eta Wait I misunderstood your question. That doesn't create a moral obligation. The moral obligation is there as long as the current residents want to stay there

So now they need to move to avoid a moral obligation based on a situation forced upon them?