Poll

Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

Yes
11 (16.9%)
No
33 (50.8%)
Not the Army but some form of service
9 (13.8%)
It's complicated
9 (13.8%)
I don't have an opinion
3 (4.6%)

Total Members Voted: 65

Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 81411 times)

Online EliJelly

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #580 on: November 24, 2024, 09:15:30 PM »
quoting a rabbi on a thread where there are people who obviously don't have much respect for Rabbis won't normally have a positive affect.

First of all I wouldn't say people around here generally don't have much respect for Rabbanim. Secondly, this particular RY is ready for the backslash and constantly voices his opinions on various controversial subjects.  ;)

Offline yelped

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #581 on: November 24, 2024, 09:27:13 PM »
People only seeing black and white (or red) make it very hard to have an honest conversation.

Offline Chuchum Ainer

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #582 on: November 24, 2024, 09:39:00 PM »

Eta. In his defense, Wikipedia shows that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iraq#:~:text=Conditions%20improved%20as,regarding%20Jewish%20issues

*some editor on Wikipedia argues that

More importantly, so what? There were, according to that article, 1k Jews left, with one Baghdadi shul to serve them. Basically the pope's Jews.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2024, 09:43:19 PM by Chuchum Ainer »

Offline moko

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #583 on: November 24, 2024, 09:42:03 PM »
Baloney. Don't dress up the reality to fit your predefined fantasy.
pot meet kettle

Offline yelped

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #584 on: November 24, 2024, 10:35:12 PM »
pot meet kettle
I'm not sure if I am understanding you correctly, but if I am (I don't mean you):
People only seeing black and white (or red) make it very hard to have an honest conversation.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #585 on: November 24, 2024, 10:48:16 PM »
quoting a rabbi on a thread where there are people who obviously don't have much respect for Rabbis

If you have any issues with specific posts disrespecting Rabbis please RTM. Casting shade on other posters isn’t going to have a positive effect either.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline Ergel

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #586 on: November 25, 2024, 09:06:10 AM »
If the army decided to stop defending Charedi cities and allowed them to be swallowed by the Palestinian Authority would things change? Imagine tomorrow morning they give back Neve Yaakov Malot Dafna Ramat Eshkol Ramot etc....They put one of those big red signs in front and gave it full access to the PA.
Gimmee a break...

Imagine someone shleps their friend into a bear cave against his will and promises to protect him with his gun. The next day, he decides that he doesn't want to be on guard all the time and tells his friend to "hold the fort". "Nope, not interested", says his friend, "I don't even want to be here". "Well, if I stop protecting you then the bear will kill us so you have to take a turn..."

The Jews in the Arab areas were on OK terms with their neighbors until the Zionists came along. Yes there was a pogrom here or there (BTW, the Chevron massacre was instigated by the Zionists...) but Jews pretty much lived in harmony, not unlike the Jews in Morocco today. Nothing like a threat to wipe out all Jews like we see today and the senseless attacks on Jews all over the war, like unfortunately R' Kagan. The Zionists even assassinated Jacob DeHann (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Isra%C3%ABl_de_Haan) because he was trying to make peace amongst the old Yishuv and the Arabs.

The Zionists made the mess, they can clean it up. Leave the Chareidim out of it...
You guys having a contest for the dumbest post?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #587 on: November 25, 2024, 09:14:40 AM »
You didn't answer my point. You just quoted Muhammed from 1500 years ago and mentioned a few places where a few 100's of Jews were killed. Yes, 10,000 Jews killed over 1000 years is, unfortunately, considered peaceful compared to...
10,000 soldiers and many thousands of civilians have been killed in just 75 years in Israel from all the wars and terror attacks.... and the threat of rockets, missiles, suicide bombers, and even nuclear attacks is forever hovering over all Jews in EY.

How many Jews have been killed in anti-Semitic attacks in the rest of the world over the last 75 years?
Choosing the last 75 years as the starting point reminds me of this book:https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728

Where were most Jews murdered in the last 80 years and was there a State of Israel when most of them were murdered?

Offline aygart

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #588 on: November 25, 2024, 09:31:54 AM »
was there a State of Israel when most of them were murdered?

Zionism started well before there was a state.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #589 on: November 25, 2024, 10:18:26 AM »
Choosing the last 75 years as the starting point reminds me of this book:https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728

Where were most Jews murdered in the last 80 years and was there a State of Israel when most of them were murdered?
Starting from the founding of the State makes sense. We are gauging how much the founding of the State has helped Jews  or how much it hurt.

If 1000X+ more Jews have been killed in the state of Israel then the rest of the world since is founding, then we can infer that the State negatively influenced the safety of Jews in the world. Add this to much of the violence outside of Israel is "because of Israel" and I think that things are pretty clear...

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #590 on: November 25, 2024, 10:20:09 AM »
You guys having a contest for the dumbest post?
If you can't understand ProIsrael's or my own posts then go join the coffee room on YWN for some intellectual stimulation.
And if you think you do understand what's going on here then i'm sure you can share your wisdom with us...

Online Just A Jew

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #591 on: November 25, 2024, 11:04:53 AM »

If 1000X+ more Jews have been killed in the state of Israel then the rest of the world since is founding, then we can infer that the State negatively influenced the safety of Jews in the world.

If 50% of the Jews are concentrated in a small area, and that area is historically a hotbed for violence, especially against Jews, and especially when Jews have been concentrated there, you can't infer anything about Zionism.

Here's what I don't get from all the anti-State people. Ignore that Jews are in the government. You chose to live in EY, and there's a random secular government in place. Why treat them any differently than you would a non-Jewish government, especially if they are committed to your physical safety? We would never have the chutzpah to be so anti-government in any other country. Law and order is a reality in every country. Requirements to serve in the military were the norm until 60 years ago, and are still the norm for any country at war.
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Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #592 on: November 25, 2024, 11:11:06 AM »
Starting from the founding of the State makes sense. We are gauging how much the founding of the State has helped Jews  or how much it hurt.

If 1000X+ more Jews have been killed in the state of Israel then the rest of the world since is founding, then we can infer that the State negatively influenced the safety of Jews in the world. Add this to much of the violence outside of Israel is "because of Israel" and I think that things are pretty clear...
No, we can infer that it was easier to find Jews to kill because they were all in one place. In Israel to kill Jews you don't have to go to a shul, you just step outside.

On a completely different note, I am reading about how Trotskyism was always anti-zionist and I wonder if that somehow seeped into the collective Jewish conscience during the bolshevik revolution

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #593 on: November 25, 2024, 11:25:02 AM »
Zionism started well before there was a state.
Are we talking about Modern Zionism or the intrinsic Zionism in Judaism? Modern Zionism puts us in the mid to late 1800s along with other nationalistic movements and then we end back up with the (crazy) argument that the Zionists were responsible for the shoah

If we're talking about intrinsic Zionism, how many Jews were murdered in the bar kochva uprising? Our history is full of evil things happening to us so I find the idea of picking a year in modern history and then putting the blame on the Zionist movement to be ridiculous.

Offline aygart

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #594 on: November 25, 2024, 11:36:21 AM »
that area is historically a hotbed for violence, especially against Jews,

This premise was hotly contested above.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #595 on: November 25, 2024, 12:00:24 PM »
If 50% of the Jews are concentrated in a small area, and that area is historically a hotbed for violence, especially against Jews, and especially when Jews have been concentrated there, you can't infer anything about Zionism.

Here's what I don't get from all the anti-State people. Ignore that Jews are in the government. You chose to live in EY, and there's a random secular government in place. Why treat them any differently than you would a non-Jewish government, especially if they are committed to your physical safety? We would never have the chutzpah to be so anti-government in any other country. Law and order is a reality in every country. Requirements to serve in the military were the norm until 60 years ago, and are still the norm for any country at war.
You are generally 100% correct. Jews should not try to change the country they are in.

There are just 3 things going on:

1) The Chareidi position was always to try to keep status quo. There was no draft for Yeshiva Bochurim for the past 75 years in Israel and most of the world that has drafts. In Israel, the exemption was recently knocked down. In the US, if they started drafting and stopped giving a divinity exemption you can be sure that the frum community would fight it.

2) Eretz Yisroel is not any other country. Its the land Hashem gave us. Why should we leave because 100 years ago some Porkei Ole decided to come in and start up with the Arabs and make it miserable for everyone?

3) This is not about yes draft or no draft. In the US, they have a draft because they need soldiers. Here they want to Shmad up the Chareidim (and everyone else). This is a Milchemes Mitzva like the Chashmonaim against the Hellenists where, yes, the Jews did fight against the Greek rulers.

Online imayid2

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #596 on: November 25, 2024, 12:22:24 PM »
Law and order is a reality in every country. Requirements to serve in the military were the norm until 60 years ago, and are still the norm for any country at war.
Seriously, how many yeshiva students left yeshiva to go serve in Vietnam?

Online Just A Jew

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #597 on: November 25, 2024, 12:30:30 PM »
Seriously, how many yeshiva students left yeshiva to go serve in Vietnam?

How many yeshiva students were there in this country during Vietnam?
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Online imayid2

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #598 on: November 25, 2024, 12:31:23 PM »
How many yeshiva students were there in this country during Vietnam?
Ok, but that’s an entirely different argument

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #599 on: November 25, 2024, 01:03:13 PM »
How many yeshiva students were there in this country during Vietnam?

IINM, there were kvutzos of "bachurim" enrolled in Yeshivos specifically to avoid the draft.