Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 28106 times)

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #180 on: March 29, 2024, 04:30:21 AM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/387545

Attorney General: Prepare to begin drafting haredim on April 1st
Attorney General Gali Baharav-Miara submitted her answer to the Supreme Court regarding the draft law, saying that since the law has expired, nothing prevents the enlistment of yeshiva students.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #181 on: March 29, 2024, 08:33:05 AM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/387545

Attorney General: Prepare to begin drafting haredim on April 1st
Attorney General Gali Baharav-Miara submitted her answer to the Supreme Court regarding the draft law, saying that since the law has expired, nothing prevents the enlistment of yeshiva students.


Why is her title Attorney General and not Supreme Leader?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline notyettaken

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #182 on: March 29, 2024, 08:53:52 AM »
Why is her title Attorney General and not Supreme Leader?
because that title is reserved for Uzi Vogelman

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #183 on: March 31, 2024, 12:06:19 PM »
They are definitely trying new ideas. The idea here is that it is not the army - so no shmad, theoretically - but not sure it will help those who say the learning is more important.
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/b1nlzaiyr
IDF unveils new plan to incorporate ultra-Orthodox sector in national defense mission
New military plans advises establishing a 'settlement defense authority' that will provide volunteers with training before placing them in various West Bank communities to bolster defenses instead of conscripted troops
Quote from: ExGingi
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Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #184 on: March 31, 2024, 05:30:55 PM »
They are definitely trying new ideas. The idea here is that it is not the army - so no shmad, theoretically - but not sure it will help those who say the learning is more important.
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/b1nlzaiyr
IDF unveils new plan to incorporate ultra-Orthodox sector in national defense mission
New military plans advises establishing a 'settlement defense authority' that will provide volunteers with training before placing them in various West Bank communities to bolster defenses instead of conscripted troops

Honestly, a good new idea that - with adjustments - could possibly gain some support among at least certain sectors of the charedi leadership.
The conversation, realisticaly, has to be first WHO in the vast spectrum of chareidim is the target. The Eida/Satmar/Etz spectrum will never have anything to do with the govt. I also doubt that the mainstream Litvish Gedolim would ever agree to removing any Talmidim from the Ponivetch/Tifrach/Slabodka/BME top tier of yeshivos from full time learning. (The other chasidim I have no Idea)
The question is really the B,C... level yeshivos - Would the Gedolim agree to move these yeshivos to the yishuvim, place them under some sort of Govt supervision (and funding...) and have a chareidi yeshiva in each Yishuv with the bachurim take shifts learning and guard duty...

Offline jye

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #185 on: March 31, 2024, 10:03:09 PM »
How about שוויון בנטל- force some chareidim to go to the army then force some chilonim to learn in the yeshivos.

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #186 on: April 01, 2024, 12:56:07 AM »
Honestly, a good new idea that - with adjustments - could possibly gain some support among at least certain sectors of the charedi leadership.
The conversation, realisticaly, has to be first WHO in the vast spectrum of chareidim is the target. The Eida/Satmar/Etz spectrum will never have anything to do with the govt. I also doubt that the mainstream Litvish Gedolim would ever agree to removing any Talmidim from the Ponivetch/Tifrach/Slabodka/BME top tier of yeshivos from full time learning. (The other chasidim I have no Idea)
The question is really the B,C... level yeshivos - Would the Gedolim agree to move these yeshivos to the yishuvim, place them under some sort of Govt supervision (and funding...) and have a chareidi yeshiva in each Yishuv with the bachurim take shifts learning and guard duty...
Yes. Still, this is out of the box thinking, which was rare until now.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #187 on: April 01, 2024, 07:30:48 AM »
Yes. Still, this is out of the box thinking, which was rare until now.

Guard duty and military duty are two very different things. Military duty means intense training, discipline, chain of command, etc.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #188 on: April 01, 2024, 07:36:41 AM »
Honestly, a good new idea that - with adjustments - could possibly gain some support among at least certain sectors of the charedi leadership.
The conversation, realisticaly, has to be first WHO in the vast spectrum of chareidim is the target. The Eida/Satmar/Etz spectrum will never have anything to do with the govt. I also doubt that the mainstream Litvish Gedolim would ever agree to removing any Talmidim from the Ponivetch/Tifrach/Slabodka/BME top tier of yeshivos from full time learning. (The other chasidim I have no Idea)
The question is really the B,C... level yeshivos - Would the Gedolim agree to move these yeshivos to the yishuvim, place them under some sort of Govt supervision (and funding...) and have a chareidi yeshiva in each Yishuv with the bachurim take shifts learning and guard duty...
Not knowing anything of the local politics...

I'd think MANY bochurim would jump on this, just like they would shomrim or Hatzala positions.

The problem until now was optics and politics, but this gives them a legitimate way to do a "cool" "macher" position while not betraying their communities. That is... If they communities allow it.
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Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #189 on: April 01, 2024, 08:49:53 AM »
Guard duty and military duty are two very different things. Military duty means intense training, discipline, chain of command, etc.
It is indeed different. For one, it appears that this is out of the chain of command, and by extension, out of the shmadding (at least theoretically).
But the idea from the part of the IDF is that it frees up IDF soldiers for other things.
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Offline yfr bachur

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Offline yelped

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #194 on: April 03, 2024, 05:19:25 PM »
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/kornreich-vs-dunner-a-haredi-womans-opinion/
Who is this David Kornreich? His article is just a confusing mess of incoherent thoughts (not going into if they have substance or not, Satmar material makes more sense than what he said).

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #195 on: April 04, 2024, 12:32:16 AM »
Who is this David Kornreich?
A student of Rabbi Moshe Meisleman (I think he may teach in his yeshivah). Writes a lot about various hot topics

Offline yelped

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #196 on: April 04, 2024, 07:12:59 AM »
A student of Rabbi Moshe Meisleman (I think he may teach in his yeshivah). Writes a lot about various hot topics
Maybe he should stop and find a better representative of Yidden to write on their behalf.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #197 on: April 04, 2024, 09:32:49 AM »
Kornreich actually makes a pretty good argument, quite harsh and blunt and therefore hard for anyone fond of Israel to stomach, but still addressing the point spot on. However, with a major flaw. He deviates from the classic yeshivish response for refusing to serve in the army, namely, that by Torah learning we're actually the ones providing security for the Land, and instead evokes an argument from a rather logical based perspective, that we see no value in Jewish sovereignty over the Land, in fact we see it as a liability for Jews in Israel and all over the world, hence why we need not to be the ones tasked with upholding it, as long as the state has the capabilities to deter an existential threat on their own. That's basically the crux of his argument here.

The issue though is that such an argument is quite contradictory to the way the ultra-orthodox world operates in Israel. Besides for the major State funds they consistently pursue and receive, they are time and again a deciding vote and factor in the formations of governments, a deciding vote on agenda whether it should be right or left and so on. So it's pretty out of place for people who are actively an integral and key part of a society to pull that card by saying we never wanted it and therefore we won't be part of it. That's why the yeshivish world is bound to the other excuse not to serve and contribute to the society they're being part of by insisting that they're actually serving in another way. The obvious shortcoming with this is the somewhat faulty assumption that a purely Torah based justification can be accepted by a largely secular non-believing population.

Offline yelped

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #198 on: April 04, 2024, 11:07:44 AM »
Kornreich actually makes a pretty good argument, quite harsh and blunt and therefore hard for anyone fond of Israel to stomach, but still addressing the point spot on. However, with a major flaw. He deviates from the classic yeshivish response for refusing to serve in the army, namely, that by Torah learning we're actually the ones providing security for the Land, and instead evokes an argument from a rather logical based perspective, that we see no value in Jewish sovereignty over the Land, in fact we see it as a liability for Jews in Israel and all over the world, hence why we need not to be the ones tasked with upholding it, as long as the state has the capabilities to deter an existential threat on their own. That's basically the crux of his argument here.

The issue though is that such an argument is quite contradictory to the way the ultra-orthodox world operates in Israel. Besides for the major State funds they consistently pursue and receive, they are time and again a deciding vote and factor in the formations of governments, a deciding vote on agenda whether it should be right or left and so on. So it's pretty out of place for people who are actively an integral and key part of a society to pull that card by saying we never wanted it and therefore we won't be part of it. That's why the yeshivish world is bound to the other excuse not to serve and contribute to the society they're being part of by insisting that they're actually serving in another way. The obvious shortcoming with this is the somewhat faulty assumption that a purely Torah based justification can be accepted by a largely secular non-believing population.
Obviously the biggest part of his baloney spiel is your second paragraph, but which Jew has an attitude "you got yourself in this mess, now leave me out of this"?! Regardless of what your opinion is regarding the founding and even existence of the State, the fact is, it exists, and it is incredibly hateful and narcissistic to say that I am not required to defend you. Even worse, what he is actually saying is that you are required to defend me, even while I partake of everything you offer, and make life "miserable" for you (in their perspective), but I won't lift a finger, because it's your problem that you started. Nevermind, that it's not true, even without a state there would have been Arab antagonism for the Jews living in Israel, and life would have been much worse under an Arab government. It's just a disgusting attitude to have.

This guy thinks he's being smart by "being direct" but he just exposes himself as stupid and narcissistic.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #199 on: April 04, 2024, 01:24:06 PM »
"The blessed reality is that Hamas does not have – and never had – even on October 7th – the capacity to pose a real existential threat to most of the Jews of Israel. They do not have anywhere near the necessary manpower or military equipment to actually take over the country and kick us out, even if that is their fervent wish and stated goal. A fervent wish and stated goal does not an existential threat make. The fact that Hamas was able to pull off such a deadly attack on a scale never seen before is more a testament to the utter failure of the defense establishment to prepare for a glaring threat on the horizon than the military capacity of Hamas’ fighters".
From Rabbi kornreich.
How does this make any sense according to his view of the army is only needed to defend the state but not the Jews? This means he recognizes that the only reason Hamas can't annihilate all the Jews in Israel r"l is because of the defense establishment