Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?

[imayid2]

is the fear that they will go OTD enough to say no frum person should go to the army?

Historically, it appears that this is not a position the Litvish Gedolim of earlier generations (Chazon Ish, Rav Shach) espoused.

Lots of this rings true

https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-halachic-and-hashkafic-analysis

1c. Shas Hashmad

In the charedi world, there exists a small but vocal minority that believes serving in the army poses a risk of shmad. This group has representation in the government through Eitz and holds significant influence in America, particularly under Reb Malkiel. If their perspective is accurate, the implications are much more serious.

Personally, I do not share this belief, and to my knowledge, most charedim align with my view. The majority of Israeli charedim belong to parties like Gimmel and Shas, which are more moderate and recognize that circumstances have changed over the past fifty years. They believe the army genuinely seeks their manpower rather than attempting to shmad them.

However, the minority does harbor such concerns, and while I disagree, their worries are not entirely unfounded. Some government officials still hold this "shmad" viewpoint, and although I believe these reshaim are in the minority and not worth excessive concern, I can understand their perspective, especially in a political landscape where parties wax and wane.

 Additionally, the army has yet to fully demonstrate its reliability. The Nachal Charedi program, which aimed to accommodate charedim by removing the greatest risk - separating the boys and girls, unfortunately was a failed experiment. It’s true that the already vulnerable charedi "dropouts" were the ones subjected to this experiment, and their emergence even weaker than before doesn’t provide much insight into what might occur if we expanded the program to include a broader range of charedim and fostered a more charedi environment. However, in the end, they have little to show for themselves to appease those who believe this constitutes a situation of shmad.

In the mainstream charedi community, we no longer view the situation as a shmad crisis, especially since many government officials are willing to accommodate our needs. Given this context, the focus shifts back to the issue of hilchos shecheinim. Thus, with the right accommodations, we can and should find a compromise and share the country's burden without jeopardizing our core values or disrupting what is currently working for our mesorah, as the UTJ party is currently working toward.

But, let it be clear, just because it’s not a shmad per se, this doesn't mean that just everything goes. Our values are central to who we are, and they are not something we can just toy around with. What we would need is a compromise that would respect our principles, and like it or not, we won't just dismantle our system to satisfy those who neither share nor respect our views.

For instance, if a full draft were instituted based on the first principle in hilchos shecheinim (that everyone must share the burden), how would we ensure that the second halacha that exempts true talmidei chachamim is upheld? We would have no way of doing so. While the current yeshiva system allows a problematic loophole where anyone can claim exemption, the truth is that it is difficult for an outsider to distinguish between those who deserve it and those who don't- something only an insider can accurately determine. The last thing we want is for the government to make that call.

So, as it stands, the system allows for talmidei chachamim to remain in yeshiva, but also allows many undeserving others to stay. But if we dismantle it, there’s a very high risk (borderline certainty) that this will lead to drafting the thousands of talmidei chachamim who are truly exempt, with catastrophic consequences for the Olam Hayeshivos and Klal Yisroel as a whole. Who's to say that hilchos shecheinim takes precedence over the more important halacha/value of preserving the integrity of the talmidei chachamim? Charedim could understandably and rightfully argue that forcing talmidei chachamim out of their learning would be spiritual destruction and would endanger our physical protection also.

Again, I don’t claim to have all the answers, and finding a compromise here won’t be easy. However, several potential solutions are on the table in the Knesset that address these concerns, and we can hope the right balance is found.

[Just A Jew]

Historically, it appears that this is not a position the Litvish Gedolim of earlier generations (Chazon Ish, Rav Shach) espoused.

My question is about the here and now. These are the 2 main reasons I'm hearing against a chareidi draft. I'd like to know which is the real one, because it can't be both.

[imayid2]

My question is about the here and now. These are the 2 main reasons I'm hearing against a chareidi draft. I'd like to know which is the real one, because it can't be both.

What is the other reason?

[Ver hut gazugt]

Question: if someone is not learning, should they go to the army, or is the fear that they will go OTD enough to say no frum person should go to the army?

here is an article on the rebbe view on this topic. Page 7

https://derher.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/110-Tishrei-5782-4.pdf

[Just A Jew]

What is the other reason?

Either it's because of the learning, or it's because of the fear people will go OTD.

[imayid2]

Either it's because of the learning, or it's because of the fear people will go OTD.

Why can’t both be factors?

[Just A Jew]

here is an article on the rebbe view on this topic. Page 7

https://derher.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/110-Tishrei-5782-4.pdf

Thank you, great read.

[Just A Jew]

Why can’t both be factors?

If learning is the real reason, then there must be an acknowledgement that those who aren't learning must serve. If that's the case, efforts must be made to make that happen. Are there concerns? Sure! Address them. Work on finding solutions. But... that isn't happening here.

If the real reason is we're concerned people will go OTD, stop blaming everyone ditching the army on Hashem's Torah. Focus on the issue and deal with it.

[imayid2]

here is an article on the rebbe view on this topic. Page 7

https://derher.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/110-Tishrei-5782-4.pdf

[Just A Jew]

The distinction here may be that in Lubavitch, we only refer to those actually enrolled and learning in yeshiva as Bnei Yeshiva. For others, that title includes everyone in their community.

[Chilla]

(This guy is a gold mine)
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/hareidi-hasbara
"Similarly, somebody who makes this argument but does not take halacha seriously in other areas of life, for example, who asserts that his daughter can sing in front men because of “sha’at hadchak”, or refuses to wear techeiles because he doesn’t want to “rock the boat” is likewise a complete fraud."

lol!

[Definitions2]

If learning is the real reason, then there must be an acknowledgement that those who aren't learning must serve. If that's the case, efforts must be made to make that happen. Are there concerns? Sure! Address them. Work on finding solutions. But... that isn't happening here.

If the real reason is we're concerned people will go OTD, stop blaming everyone ditching the army on Hashem's Torah. Focus on the issue and deal with it.

Concerning the latter - what should be done? I personally believe that if there is less learning then people will go off. Maybe not this generation but the one after. It is literally the lifeline of frumkeit.

[EliJelly]

If learning is the real reason, then there must be an acknowledgement that those who aren't learning must serve. If that's the case, efforts must be made to make that happen. Are there concerns? Sure! Address them. Work on finding solutions. But... that isn't happening here.

If the real reason is we're concerned people will go OTD, stop blaming everyone ditching the army on Hashem's Torah. Focus on the issue and deal with it.

I think the concern is they'll go OTD, which we might refer to it as they might become mechalellei shabbos while Litvaks refer to that as they might stop shteiging in learning.

[Just A Jew]

Concerning the latter - what should be done? I personally believe that if there is less learning then people will go off. Maybe not this generation but the one after. It is literally the lifeline of frumkeit.

I'm the wrong person to ask. My issue is that it's not even being seriously discussed.

[Definitions2]

I'm the wrong person to ask. My issue is that it's not even being seriously discussed.

Because there's no answer to it. It's as clear as day to what the ramifications are (at least from my basic understanding). It would only be considered if Arabs are running around the streets of yerushalayim killing people and the army can't contain it. Only then will there be a discussion to have.

[Just A Jew]

Because there's no answer to it. It's as clear as day to what the ramifications are (at least from my basic understanding). It would only be considered if Arabs are running around the streets of yerushalayim killing people and the army can't contain it. Only then will there be a discussion to have.

1) Whether Arabs are running around Yerushalayim or shooting rockets from other countries, the danger is real and present and soldiers are needed.

2) If the concern is learning, there are plenty of able-bodied young men who aren't learning.

3) If the concern is Yiddishe values, there are plenty of frum soldiers who stay frum in the army.

Saying there is no answer or solution is simply not true. You can say it is a daunting task. You can say you don't know how it will be accomplished. But they aren't even trying.

[imayid2]

The poll doesn’t give an option to differentiate between בני ישיבה and otherwise, which is rather crucial.

[imayid2]

The distinction here may be that in Lubavitch, we only refer to those actually enrolled and learning in yeshiva as Bnei Yeshiva. For others, that title includes everyone in their community.

[EliJelly]

You didn't buy this last time.

נניח that this is indeed true, his issue was using the ben yeshiva status falsely, thus ruining it for everyone else. That's a far cry from וברמה העקרונית – ודאי שעליו להתגייס לצבא. He should try different routes to avoid being drafted (Exgingi had some creative ideas). Ascribing an obligation to serve in the army if someone isn't learning in yeshiva to the Chazon Ish is a disgusting lie.

[Just A Jew]

So not only Lubavitch. I believe the point still stands...