Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 12656 times)

Offline ariIs

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2014, 07:35:33 PM »

So for the sizable minority we shouldn't fight the draft???????

The draft is not of everyone. There is a sizable amount of yeshiva exemptions. They're not suggesting that all Haredim go to the army.
They want to limit the number of exemptions.

Offline ariIs

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2014, 07:39:16 PM »

Are the "stipends" any different than the social programs in the USA? Would you ask foodstamp recipients to "give back" by doing community service, or would that be unfair?

The sole requirement to receive government programs should be poverty. Not some social status, situation or contribution. That would be prejudice.

FWIW, welfare recipients are required to work in cleaning streets, etc. in NY, unless they are deemed physically unable to work.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2014, 07:44:04 PM »
FWIW, welfare recipients are required to work in cleaning streets, etc. in NY, unless they are deemed physically unable to work.
-9

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2014, 07:53:44 PM »

Are the "stipends" any different than the social programs in the USA? Would you ask foodstamp recipients to "give back" by doing community service, or would that be unfair?

The sole requirement to receive government programs should be poverty. Not some social status, situation or contribution. That would be prejudice.

After a while, they will run out of other people's money.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2014, 08:07:09 PM »
Are the "stipends" any different than the social programs in the USA? Would you ask foodstamp recipients to "give back" by doing community service, or would that be unfair?

The sole requirement to receive government programs should be poverty. Not some social status, situation or contribution. That would be prejudice.

Two things:

First, our communities often rail against various minorities who abuse governmental programs, but this is partaking in a grand way.  "Do  as I say, not as I do?"

Second,  there's no social expectation here of serving our country; no draft, no public service requirement, etc., so you can't even compare.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2014, 08:14:02 PM »
try suggesting that poor minority communities in the US to sweep the streets.

Very extreme. Even for right wingers.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2014, 08:17:17 PM »
But it's not expected of the majority.  Serving in the Israeli military is.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2014, 08:18:43 PM »
After a while, they will run out of other people's money.
Israels uses VAT tax system. Everyone pays in.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2014, 08:26:04 PM »
Israels uses VAT tax system. Everyone pays in.
Not if the government is funding the purchases in the first place
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2014, 08:26:55 PM »
Not if the government is funding the purchases in the first place
right. That was a weak one ^-^

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2014, 08:30:22 PM »
Second,  there's no social expectation here of serving our country; no draft, no public service requirement, etc., so you can't even compare.

Very simple - the charedi world prefers living somewhere where they can learn torah, than living in Israel, so the Israeli government decided in 1948 that since they won't live in Israel if they have to serve in the army instead of learning, they will allow them to live in Israel without serving. Thus there is no social expectation whatsoever.

The problem started since the yeshivos and people became desperate and began relying on the government for financial support.
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Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2014, 08:41:03 PM »
Very simple - the charedi world prefers living somewhere where they can learn torah, than living in Israel, so the Israeli government decided in 1948 that since they won't live in Israel if they have to serve in the army instead of learning, they will allow them to live in Israel without serving. Thus there is no social expectation whatsoever.

The problem started since the yeshivos and people became desperate and began relying on the government for financial support.

Coupled with the huge increase in the Chareidi population.

Also, source that they've been exempt since 1948?

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2014, 08:48:59 PM »
Coupled with the huge increase in the Chareidi population.


Since the increase in population is not decreasing the non-charedi Israelis, it increases the benefit to the state of charedi presence, yet only very marginally increases the burden on the military (they are primarily defending land, not people).

Also, source that they've been exempt since 1948?
It's the type of thing you don't need a source for, but here's a Wikipedia article quoting March 9 (interesting date coincidence) as the day the exemption started. http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/תורתו_אומנותו
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Offline avremie

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2014, 10:05:09 PM »
While we all agree that bochrim should not be removed from yeshiva I think its very disturbing the disrespect some charedim show to those that do serve. They actually risk their lives protecting them too. Imagine we in American would show the same attitude towards our military.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2014, 10:10:24 PM »
The army is full of znus, chilul Shabbos, kfira and all sorts of aveiros. Even leaving zionism aside, a frum Jew even if he doesn't learn, shouldn't set foot there.