Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 16788 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2014, 08:14:02 PM »
try suggesting that poor minority communities in the US to sweep the streets.

Very extreme. Even for right wingers.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2014, 08:17:17 PM »
But it's not expected of the majority.  Serving in the Israeli military is.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2014, 08:18:43 PM »
After a while, they will run out of other people's money.
Israels uses VAT tax system. Everyone pays in.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2014, 08:26:04 PM »
Israels uses VAT tax system. Everyone pays in.
Not if the government is funding the purchases in the first place
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2014, 08:26:55 PM »
Not if the government is funding the purchases in the first place
right. That was a weak one ^-^

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2014, 08:30:22 PM »
Second,  there's no social expectation here of serving our country; no draft, no public service requirement, etc., so you can't even compare.

Very simple - the charedi world prefers living somewhere where they can learn torah, than living in Israel, so the Israeli government decided in 1948 that since they won't live in Israel if they have to serve in the army instead of learning, they will allow them to live in Israel without serving. Thus there is no social expectation whatsoever.

The problem started since the yeshivos and people became desperate and began relying on the government for financial support.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2014, 08:41:03 PM »
Very simple - the charedi world prefers living somewhere where they can learn torah, than living in Israel, so the Israeli government decided in 1948 that since they won't live in Israel if they have to serve in the army instead of learning, they will allow them to live in Israel without serving. Thus there is no social expectation whatsoever.

The problem started since the yeshivos and people became desperate and began relying on the government for financial support.

Coupled with the huge increase in the Chareidi population.

Also, source that they've been exempt since 1948?

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2014, 08:48:59 PM »
Coupled with the huge increase in the Chareidi population.


Since the increase in population is not decreasing the non-charedi Israelis, it increases the benefit to the state of charedi presence, yet only very marginally increases the burden on the military (they are primarily defending land, not people).

Also, source that they've been exempt since 1948?
It's the type of thing you don't need a source for, but here's a Wikipedia article quoting March 9 (interesting date coincidence) as the day the exemption started. http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/תורתו_אומנותו
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline avremie

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2014, 10:05:09 PM »
While we all agree that bochrim should not be removed from yeshiva I think its very disturbing the disrespect some charedim show to those that do serve. They actually risk their lives protecting them too. Imagine we in American would show the same attitude towards our military.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2014, 10:10:24 PM »
The army is full of znus, chilul Shabbos, kfira and all sorts of aveiros. Even leaving zionism aside, a frum Jew even if he doesn't learn, shouldn't set foot there.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2014, 10:12:57 PM »
We never showed our contempt for them before this incitement by the secular and the secular lite started.

We all know how everyone was talking about them until this.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2014, 10:14:04 PM »
The army is full of znus, chilul Shabbos, kfira and all sorts of aveiros. Even leaving zionism aside, a frum Jew even if he doesn't learn, shouldn't set foot there.
None of that would be true if there was a critical mass of charedi soldiers.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline tzvicoco

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2014, 10:20:07 PM »
The army is full of znus, chilul Shabbos, kfira and all sorts of aveiros. Even leaving zionism aside, a frum Jew even if he doesn't learn, shouldn't set foot there.
The world is full of znus, chilul Shabbos, kfira and all sorts of aveiros. And frum Jews have the opportunity and duty to make things better. Again, I support the right and obligation to learn, but to not give back to the country and the organization that defends everybody within it is a chilul Hashem. There is room for compromise. See my earlier comment about bein hazmanim.
That being said, for a frum Jew that has enough bitachon I think the army is a wonderful thing and indeed preferable.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2014, 10:29:04 PM »
None of that would be true if there was a critical mass of charedi soldiers.

We all know what takes precedence in the army even for mizrachists. The commander or halacha?

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2014, 10:30:57 PM »
The world is full of znus, chilul Shabbos, kfira and all sorts of aveiros. And frum Jews have the opportunity and duty to make things better. Again, I support the right and obligation to learn, but to not give back to the country and the organization that defends everybody within it is a chilul Hashem. There is room for compromise. See my earlier comment about bein hazmanim.
That being said, for a frum Jew that has enough bitachon I think the army is a wonderful thing and indeed preferable.

We do all that we can to be machzir bitshuva as many as we can and it's evidenced by the multitudes of bt's. We don't have to join their swamp. Leaving aside that we aren't and never were zionists even if we weren't openly hostile.

Offline tzvicoco

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2014, 10:38:19 PM »
We do all that we can to be machzir bitshuva as many as we can and it's evidenced by the multitudes of bt's. We don't have to join their swamp. Leaving aside that we aren't and never were zionists even if we weren't openly hostile.
I know many a frum Jew to come out of the army just as frum. But to you I suppose that's just hearsay or a lie or a few exceptions. If there was a way to guarantee a charedi environment in national service, would you still be against it? Do you see a value in giving back?

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2014, 10:48:41 PM »
We all know what takes precedence in the army even for mizrachists. The commander or halacha?
in halacha as well the Dr's decision trumps the Rabbi
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2014, 11:02:18 PM »
in halacha as well the Dr's decision trumps the Rabbi

Well, no.

Offline ariIs

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2014, 11:08:30 PM »
We do all that we can to be machzir bitshuva as many as we can and it's evidenced by the multitudes of bt's. We don't have to join their swamp. Leaving aside that we aren't and never were zionists even if we weren't openly hostile.

Would you care to elaborate on what swamp are you referring to?
Who is this 'we' in relation to 'bts'?
Bemakom baal tshevua omed, ein tzadik omed.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2014, 11:13:42 PM »
The swamp is where they were before they became bt's. Now they're the cream of the crop.