Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 12654 times)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #75 on: March 10, 2014, 09:47:21 AM »
t's just that you have unnecessary chumras that are improperly declared as deoraysa.
Name 1
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #76 on: March 10, 2014, 09:51:29 AM »

And just because they don't dress the way you do doesn't mean they don't.
Until the emergence of self-conscious orthodoxy in the 1800's, the distinctions we make about types of Jews were unheard of. But with the reform movement came the fear of movement to the left, so ultra-orthodoxy came to overcompensate for that threat. But those that stayed in the center, the ones that you now call "modern orthodox," were the ones that remained unchanged. So it's not that we have unlimited Kulas, it's just that you have unnecessary chumras that are improperly declared as deoraysa.

Rupture and Reconstruction covers this issue in depth.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #77 on: March 10, 2014, 10:04:08 AM »
And just because they don't dress the way you do doesn't mean they don't.
Until the emergence of self-conscious orthodoxy in the 1800's, the distinctions we make about types of Jews were unheard of. But with the reform movement came the fear of movement to the left, so ultra-orthodoxy came to overcompensate for that threat. But those that stayed in the center, the ones that you now call "modern orthodox," were the ones that remained unchanged. So it's not that we have unlimited Kulas, it's just that you have unnecessary chumras that are improperly declared as deoraysa.

The modx in my family didn't stay at the center.
3/4 of my family are like that. They are all those that became kalye in America.
They come from chassidish Galician families and from very frum Lithuanian families.
Almost all modox that I'm in contact with daily are like that.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #78 on: March 10, 2014, 10:04:50 AM »
That applies to chareidim too.

But we're talking about the gedolei yisrael now. Not your random Rabbi.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #79 on: March 10, 2014, 10:05:39 AM »

The modx in my family didn't stay at the center.
3/4 of my family are like that. They are all those that became kalye in America.
They come from chassidish Galician families and from very frum Lithuanian families.
Almost all modox that I'm in contact with daily are like that.

Your family should check their Yichus.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #80 on: March 10, 2014, 10:06:13 AM »
Name 1

Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not. 

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #81 on: March 10, 2014, 10:09:01 AM »

Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not.

Get ready for no true Scotsman.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #82 on: March 10, 2014, 10:10:46 AM »
Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not. 

Tefach Be'Isha Erva.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #83 on: March 10, 2014, 10:12:58 AM »
Tefach Be'Isha Erva.

Point proven.  What happened to shok b'isha erva?  Or was that not strict enough?

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2014, 10:13:10 AM »
Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not.
Who will you find saying it's deoriasa?

Tefach Be'Isha Erva.
Do you realize how stupid that is?
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Offline Sport

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2014, 10:14:50 AM »
It seems this thread has gone way OT. This argument is so sad😢. Of course not everyone's going to agree on what's considered the ideal way to practice yidishkiet, but to put down entire sects of Jews on a public forum doesn't seem to serve any constructive purpose.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2014, 10:15:11 AM »
Who will you find saying it's deoriasa?

Moshe123 lol.

On a serious note, I don't think he meant actually deoirasia.  I think he meant that people treat it as if it is, and if you don't abide you're a kofer.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2014, 10:17:49 AM »
And just because they don't dress the way you do doesn't mean they don't.
Until the emergence of self-conscious orthodoxy in the 1800's, the distinctions we make about types of Jews were unheard of. But with the reform movement came the fear of movement to the left, so ultra-orthodoxy came to overcompensate for that threat. But those that stayed in the center, the ones that you now call "modern orthodox," were the ones that remained unchanged. So it's not that we have unlimited Kulas, it's just that you have unnecessary chumras that are improperly declared as deoraysa.
This is the MO argument justifying their way of life. They invented new hashkafos in the last hundred years, most of them based on the ruach of "enlightenment", like using secular names, being secularly educated, embracing non jewish culture, less respect for limud hatora etc etc. While the chareidi hashkafa has not changed since we were in egypt. We separate ourselves from the nations and put an emphasis on limud hatora. Nothing new at all. Yes, some of the yeshivos are structured a little differently, this is not "reconstruction" like the MO have done.
Was there a YU in Bavel? Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 

They call themselves "Modern", a term that by definition means out with the old and in with the new. As if they can improve anything over generations of ehrliche yidden.


Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2014, 10:22:51 AM »
Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not.
Yidden sat separately at every event for thousands of years. The gemara and poskim are full of examples. Just because there was a terrible influence of enlightenment in europe over the last 200 years that caused yiddishkeit to regress does not mean that it is the right thing.

Check out the book A Divine Madness by R A miller, he describes the terrible state of jewry in europe pre war. This was far from the normal state of yiddishkeit. The MO are nostalgic for those terrible years?

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2014, 10:23:41 AM »

This is the MO argument justifying their way of life. They invented new hashkafos in the last hundred years, most of them based on the ruach of "enlightenment", like using secular names, being secularly educated, embracing non jewish culture, less respect for limud hatora etc etc. While the chareidi hashkafa has not changed since we were in egypt. We separate ourselves from the nations and put an emphasis on limud hatora. Nothing new at all. Yes, some of the yeshivos are structured a little differently, this is not "reconstruction" like the MO have done.
Was there a YU in Bavel? Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 

They call themselves "Modern", a term that by definition means out with the old and in with the new. As if they can improve anything over generations of ehrliche yidden.

This is gonna be fun.