Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 12591 times)

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2014, 10:25:11 AM »

Yidden sat separately at every event for thousands of years. The gemara and poskim are full of examples. Just because there was a terrible influence of enlightenment in europe over the last 200 years that caused yiddishkeit to regress does not mean that it is the right thing.

Check out the book A Divine Madness by R A miller, he describes the terrible state of jewry in europe pre war. This was far from the normal state of yiddishkeit. The MO are nostalgic for those terrible years?

...and Moshe Rabeinu wore a shtreimel.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #91 on: March 10, 2014, 10:26:07 AM »
This is the MO argument justifying their way of life. They invented new hashkafos in the last hundred years, most of them based on the ruach of "enlightenment", like using secular names, being secularly educated, embracing non jewish culture, less respect for limud hatora etc etc. While the chareidi hashkafa has not changed since we were in egypt. We separate ourselves from the nations and put an emphasis on limud hatora. Nothing new at all. Yes, some of the yeshivos are structured a little differently, this is not "reconstruction" like the MO have done.
Was there a YU in Bavel? Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 

They call themselves "Modern", a term that by definition means out with the old and in with the new. As if they can improve anything over generations of ehrliche yidden.

That's BS.  Yeshivish right-wing Judaism is a construct that is just as new.  Plenty of 20th century gedolim went by secular names when not in their yeshiva setting.  I.e. Paul Medlowits, Issaac Hutner, and plenty others.  It's completely disingenuous to pretend that your lifestyle is the same as jews 1,000 years ago, let alone 50 years ago.

PS:  R' Shmuel Kamenetsky's wedding had mixed seating.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2014, 10:26:29 AM »
This is gonna be fun.
Im having a blast already  :D

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2014, 10:27:23 AM »
Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 
If not, it was because they were segregated to ghettos. The black hats we wear today come from the goyim.
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #94 on: March 10, 2014, 10:28:36 AM »
Issaac Hutner,
Might as well mention his 4 years in France and send us all to learn Psychology in University
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Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #95 on: March 10, 2014, 10:28:48 AM »
Im having a blast already  :D

Me too  :)

You and I disagree on most everything, but at least you usually stay pretty level-headed and articulate. 

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #96 on: March 10, 2014, 10:36:54 AM »
This is the MO argument justifying their way of life. They invented new hashkafos in the last hundred years, most of them based on the ruach of "enlightenment", like using secular names, being secularly educated, embracing non jewish culture, less respect for limud hatora etc etc. While the chareidi hashkafa has not changed since we were in egypt. We separate ourselves from the nations and put an emphasis on limud hatora. Nothing new at all. Yes, some of the yeshivos are structured a little differently, this is not "reconstruction" like the MO have done.
Was there a YU in Bavel? Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 

They call themselves "Modern", a term that by definition means out with the old and in with the new. As if they can improve anything over generations of ehrliche yidden.



Well said.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2014, 10:37:51 AM »

If not, it was because they were segregated to ghettos. The black hats we wear today come from the goyim.

Which makes me wonder, who had the chutzpah to challenge our mesorah and don fedoras?

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #98 on: March 10, 2014, 10:40:35 AM »
Which makes me wonder, who had the chutzpah to challenge our mesorah and don fedoras?
The bigger question is who will finally put an end to it
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2014, 10:43:41 AM »
Yidden sat separately at every event for thousands of years. The gemara and poskim are full of examples. Just because there was a terrible influence of enlightenment in europe over the last 200 years that caused yiddishkeit to regress does not mean that it is the right thing.

Check out the book A Divine Madness by R A miller, he describes the terrible state of jewry in europe pre war. This was far from the normal state of yiddishkeit. The MO are nostalgic for those terrible years?
That's BS.  Yeshivish right-wing Judaism is a construct that is just as new.  Plenty of 20th century gedolim went by secular names when not in their yeshiva setting.  I.e. Paul Medlowits, Issaac Hutner, and plenty others.  It's completely disingenuous to pretend that your lifestyle is the same as jews 1,000 years ago, let alone 50 years ago.

PS:  R' Shmuel Kamenetsky's wedding had mixed seating.
The early 1900 were a terrible time. Anyone with a frum name was scorned. Lets not go back to those days. Virtually all families had children mechalley shabbos.

Offline yoshi

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2014, 10:46:09 AM »
Should we change the thread name to, are modern orthodox Jews actually Jewish? :p

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2014, 10:47:22 AM »
The early 1900 were a terrible time. Anyone with a frum name was scorned. Lets not go back to those days. Virtually all families had children mechalley shabbos.

That doesn't change my point.  Current right-wing orthodoxy is a modern construct.

Offline ariIs

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2014, 10:57:30 AM »
Someone I know said once:
The premise of chasidus is that you're only allowed to change mesora once :)

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2014, 10:57:52 AM »
Which makes me wonder, who had the chutzpah to challenge our mesorah and don fedoras?

It really bothers you.
Nobody here mentioned anything about the levush.
Jews always dressed differently than the goyim. It just changed exactly how it was during each period.
The sephardim dress differently than the ashkenazim and nobody has an issue. The teimanim dress a third way.

And then you have the modox that want to dress like the goy.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2014, 10:59:44 AM »

Jews always dressed differently than the goyim.
Not true. Suit and black hat is exactly how the goyim dressed 100 years.
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