Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 17469 times)

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #80 on: March 10, 2014, 10:06:13 AM »
Name 1

Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not. 

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #81 on: March 10, 2014, 10:09:01 AM »

Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not.

Get ready for no true Scotsman.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #82 on: March 10, 2014, 10:10:46 AM »
Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not. 

Tefach Be'Isha Erva.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #83 on: March 10, 2014, 10:12:58 AM »
Tefach Be'Isha Erva.

Point proven.  What happened to shok b'isha erva?  Or was that not strict enough?

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2014, 10:13:10 AM »
Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not.
Who will you find saying it's deoriasa?

Tefach Be'Isha Erva.
Do you realize how stupid that is?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Sport

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2014, 10:14:50 AM »
It seems this thread has gone way OT. This argument is so sad😢. Of course not everyone's going to agree on what's considered the ideal way to practice yidishkiet, but to put down entire sects of Jews on a public forum doesn't seem to serve any constructive purpose.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2014, 10:15:11 AM »
Who will you find saying it's deoriasa?

Moshe123 lol.

On a serious note, I don't think he meant actually deoirasia.  I think he meant that people treat it as if it is, and if you don't abide you're a kofer.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2014, 10:17:49 AM »
And just because they don't dress the way you do doesn't mean they don't.
Until the emergence of self-conscious orthodoxy in the 1800's, the distinctions we make about types of Jews were unheard of. But with the reform movement came the fear of movement to the left, so ultra-orthodoxy came to overcompensate for that threat. But those that stayed in the center, the ones that you now call "modern orthodox," were the ones that remained unchanged. So it's not that we have unlimited Kulas, it's just that you have unnecessary chumras that are improperly declared as deoraysa.
This is the MO argument justifying their way of life. They invented new hashkafos in the last hundred years, most of them based on the ruach of "enlightenment", like using secular names, being secularly educated, embracing non jewish culture, less respect for limud hatora etc etc. While the chareidi hashkafa has not changed since we were in egypt. We separate ourselves from the nations and put an emphasis on limud hatora. Nothing new at all. Yes, some of the yeshivos are structured a little differently, this is not "reconstruction" like the MO have done.
Was there a YU in Bavel? Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 

They call themselves "Modern", a term that by definition means out with the old and in with the new. As if they can improve anything over generations of ehrliche yidden.


Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2014, 10:22:51 AM »
Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not.
Yidden sat separately at every event for thousands of years. The gemara and poskim are full of examples. Just because there was a terrible influence of enlightenment in europe over the last 200 years that caused yiddishkeit to regress does not mean that it is the right thing.

Check out the book A Divine Madness by R A miller, he describes the terrible state of jewry in europe pre war. This was far from the normal state of yiddishkeit. The MO are nostalgic for those terrible years?

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2014, 10:23:41 AM »

This is the MO argument justifying their way of life. They invented new hashkafos in the last hundred years, most of them based on the ruach of "enlightenment", like using secular names, being secularly educated, embracing non jewish culture, less respect for limud hatora etc etc. While the chareidi hashkafa has not changed since we were in egypt. We separate ourselves from the nations and put an emphasis on limud hatora. Nothing new at all. Yes, some of the yeshivos are structured a little differently, this is not "reconstruction" like the MO have done.
Was there a YU in Bavel? Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 

They call themselves "Modern", a term that by definition means out with the old and in with the new. As if they can improve anything over generations of ehrliche yidden.

This is gonna be fun.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2014, 10:25:11 AM »

Yidden sat separately at every event for thousands of years. The gemara and poskim are full of examples. Just because there was a terrible influence of enlightenment in europe over the last 200 years that caused yiddishkeit to regress does not mean that it is the right thing.

Check out the book A Divine Madness by R A miller, he describes the terrible state of jewry in europe pre war. This was far from the normal state of yiddishkeit. The MO are nostalgic for those terrible years?

...and Moshe Rabeinu wore a shtreimel.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #91 on: March 10, 2014, 10:26:07 AM »
This is the MO argument justifying their way of life. They invented new hashkafos in the last hundred years, most of them based on the ruach of "enlightenment", like using secular names, being secularly educated, embracing non jewish culture, less respect for limud hatora etc etc. While the chareidi hashkafa has not changed since we were in egypt. We separate ourselves from the nations and put an emphasis on limud hatora. Nothing new at all. Yes, some of the yeshivos are structured a little differently, this is not "reconstruction" like the MO have done.
Was there a YU in Bavel? Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 

They call themselves "Modern", a term that by definition means out with the old and in with the new. As if they can improve anything over generations of ehrliche yidden.

That's BS.  Yeshivish right-wing Judaism is a construct that is just as new.  Plenty of 20th century gedolim went by secular names when not in their yeshiva setting.  I.e. Paul Medlowits, Issaac Hutner, and plenty others.  It's completely disingenuous to pretend that your lifestyle is the same as jews 1,000 years ago, let alone 50 years ago.

PS:  R' Shmuel Kamenetsky's wedding had mixed seating.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2014, 10:26:29 AM »
This is gonna be fun.
Im having a blast already  :D

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2014, 10:27:23 AM »
Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 
If not, it was because they were segregated to ghettos. The black hats we wear today come from the goyim.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #94 on: March 10, 2014, 10:28:36 AM »
Issaac Hutner,
Might as well mention his 4 years in France and send us all to learn Psychology in University
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #95 on: March 10, 2014, 10:28:48 AM »
Im having a blast already  :D

Me too  :)

You and I disagree on most everything, but at least you usually stay pretty level-headed and articulate. 

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #96 on: March 10, 2014, 10:36:54 AM »
This is the MO argument justifying their way of life. They invented new hashkafos in the last hundred years, most of them based on the ruach of "enlightenment", like using secular names, being secularly educated, embracing non jewish culture, less respect for limud hatora etc etc. While the chareidi hashkafa has not changed since we were in egypt. We separate ourselves from the nations and put an emphasis on limud hatora. Nothing new at all. Yes, some of the yeshivos are structured a little differently, this is not "reconstruction" like the MO have done.
Was there a YU in Bavel? Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 

They call themselves "Modern", a term that by definition means out with the old and in with the new. As if they can improve anything over generations of ehrliche yidden.



Well said.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2014, 10:37:51 AM »

If not, it was because they were segregated to ghettos. The black hats we wear today come from the goyim.

Which makes me wonder, who had the chutzpah to challenge our mesorah and don fedoras?

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #98 on: March 10, 2014, 10:40:35 AM »
Which makes me wonder, who had the chutzpah to challenge our mesorah and don fedoras?
The bigger question is who will finally put an end to it
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2014, 10:43:41 AM »
Yidden sat separately at every event for thousands of years. The gemara and poskim are full of examples. Just because there was a terrible influence of enlightenment in europe over the last 200 years that caused yiddishkeit to regress does not mean that it is the right thing.

Check out the book A Divine Madness by R A miller, he describes the terrible state of jewry in europe pre war. This was far from the normal state of yiddishkeit. The MO are nostalgic for those terrible years?
That's BS.  Yeshivish right-wing Judaism is a construct that is just as new.  Plenty of 20th century gedolim went by secular names when not in their yeshiva setting.  I.e. Paul Medlowits, Issaac Hutner, and plenty others.  It's completely disingenuous to pretend that your lifestyle is the same as jews 1,000 years ago, let alone 50 years ago.

PS:  R' Shmuel Kamenetsky's wedding had mixed seating.
The early 1900 were a terrible time. Anyone with a frum name was scorned. Lets not go back to those days. Virtually all families had children mechalley shabbos.