Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 12735 times)

Online ariIs

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #135 on: March 10, 2014, 04:37:59 PM »

When soldiers are drafted, the monetary cost remains the same as when they are paid enough to convince them to volunteer, but the cost is hidden. For example, suppose you have someone who is making $50,000 in his private job. In order to convince him to voluntarily enlist, you must pay him at least $50,000 as a soldier. So there is an obvious, explicit monetary cost of $50,000 to convince him to volunteer. If you draft him, you don't have to pay him any money, so it appears like you're saving the expense. But in reality, the same expense is incurred, because the economy is losing a job which produced $50,000 for society. This is an opportunity cost; even if you don't pay him, society is still losing the value of his productivity, which is equal to how much you would have paid him. (Again, we are ignoring psychological costs for now.) So either way, the same cost of $50,000 is incurred whether you draft someone or pay him enough to convince him to voluntarily enlist. But if you draft him, that cost is hidden and unseen.


Ok, so what you're advocating is that only poor people, or people who want to go into underpaid professions should go to the army, while rich people with good educations should not?
Why don't we also institute a payment system where rich parents can pay into the system (hey, more govt revenue!) to have their kids not be drafted!
Only the poor should die for their country.
Yep, that seems really fair to me.

Offline henche

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #136 on: March 10, 2014, 04:46:37 PM »
It subtracts from the utility of the people who earned, just like if you'd burn the money

I see our miscommunication.

Net social utility is determined by adding up everyone's social utility (and then multiplying by a factor designed to recognize the value of decreasing marginal value of money).  The philosophers who call themselves economists like to think that is a good basis for public policy.

So redistribution is net zero.

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #137 on: March 10, 2014, 04:47:24 PM »
Ok, so what you're advocating is that only poor people, or people who want to go into underpaid professions should go to the army, while rich people with good educations should not?
Why don't we also institute a payment system where rich parents can pay into the system (hey, more govt revenue!) to have their kids not be drafted!
Only the poor should die for their country.
Yep, that seems really fair to me.
That is not what is happening in the USA
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Offline Ergel

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #138 on: March 10, 2014, 04:52:05 PM »
That is not what is happening in the USA
Did you forget #sarcasm?
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Offline MoGro17

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #139 on: March 10, 2014, 05:00:19 PM »
It seems to me that the current status quo is that people who want an exemption end up getting it pretty easily
Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #140 on: March 10, 2014, 05:02:06 PM »
Ok, so what you're advocating is that only poor people, or people who want to go into underpaid professions should go to the army, while rich people with good educations should not?
Why don't we also institute a payment system where rich parents can pay into the system (hey, more govt revenue!) to have their kids not be drafted!
Only the poor should die for their country.
Yep, that seems really fair to me.

Switzerland has a lifetime higher income tax for draft exempts 
Purpose > Pleasure

Offline MoGro17

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #141 on: March 10, 2014, 05:02:46 PM »
Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.
P.S. I know my comment makes it sound like its all about the money. It's not. While money plays a significant role, I'm just as concerned about the bitul torah and the wasted time/energy/productivity.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #142 on: March 10, 2014, 05:03:01 PM »
Switzerland has a lifetime higher income tax for draft exempts 
That only matters if you are paying income taxes
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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #143 on: March 10, 2014, 05:04:28 PM »
That only matters if you are paying income taxes
haha
Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.
I was talking about non frum people who don't seem to have such a hard time getting out
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Offline MoGro17

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #144 on: March 10, 2014, 05:07:04 PM »
I was talking about non frum people who don't seem to have such a hard time getting out
Excellent point.
There is no question that the current enforcement system leaves much to be desired.

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #145 on: March 10, 2014, 05:07:51 PM »
Excellent point.
There is no question that the current enforcement system leaves much to be desired.
Perhaps because they don't really need everyone?
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2014, 05:13:46 PM »
Excellent point.
There is no question that the current enforcement system leaves much to be desired.
You can't really force someone who doesn't want to serve to serve, he'll make a real lousy soldier and lower the general morale.
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2014, 06:11:15 PM »
Did you forget #sarcasm?
NOOOOO!!! Do you have any research or numbers to back up your ASSUMPTION?
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Offline Ergel

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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #148 on: March 10, 2014, 06:48:20 PM »
NOOOOO!!! Do you have any research or numbers to back up your ASSUMPTION?
From a simple Google search. I'm sure there are more scientific sources

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/22/AR2008012203326.html

Singled out by the Pentagon for intense recruitment drives are urban centers such as Los Angeles and New York. The latter, in which low-income students account for 51% of all high school enrollment and where 71% are black or Latino, contains three of the nation’s top 32 counties for Army enlistment. In Los Angeles, 91% of the students are non-white and 75% are low-income.
And the Coalition Against Militarism in Our Schools says the 30 JROTC programs in Los Angeles Unified School District (with 4,754 students) are “Located in the most economically depressed communities of the city.”
African-Americans make up 16% of the civilian population of military age but 22% of the Army’s enlisted personnel, the ACLU notes. It charges bluntly: “The U.S. military’s practice of targeting low-income youth and students of color in combination with exaggerated promises of financial rewards for enlistment, undermines the voluntariness of their enlistment…”
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Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #149 on: March 10, 2014, 07:04:25 PM »
Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.

+1