Author Topic: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?  (Read 12565 times)

Offline Chaikel

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 6770
  • Total likes: 49
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 20
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: LH SEN, SPG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Rav Kav Platinum
Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #165 on: March 12, 2014, 08:32:50 PM »
You're forgetting child support for charedi families, arnona discounts, healthcare, and schooling.
Child support has been slashed many times over the past 10 years. Health care is free for all residents. And I was referring to schooling
Create professional looking itineraries.
Free trial! Check out eliteitinerary.com
Code:DD

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 9910
  • Total likes: 58
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #166 on: March 12, 2014, 08:35:46 PM »
Child support has been slashed many times over the past 10 years. Health care is free for all residents. And I was referring to schooling

The government doesn't owe anybody any child support, and they can slash it from the current $1000/yr to nothing.

Healthcare is free for all residents and now military service is mandatory for all residents. If you don't give you can't take.

Primary schooling in religious schools is still government funded. They can stop funding private schools.

Say what you will, the charedi system probably cannot survive without the government's money. More people would need to work.
Purpose > Pleasure

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6981
  • Total likes: 1613
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #167 on: March 12, 2014, 08:42:38 PM »
The government doesn't owe anybody any child support, and they can slash it from the current $1000/yr to nothing.
Not worse that the child tax credit
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 9910
  • Total likes: 58
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #168 on: March 12, 2014, 08:43:58 PM »
Not worse that the child tax credit
Just because America does it doesn't mean Israel has to do it. Certainly not if the father is considered a criminal

I'm not C'V advocating anything, I'm just saying the Israeli gov't has tremendous leverage without locking people up in jail.
Purpose > Pleasure

Offline Chaikel

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 6770
  • Total likes: 49
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 20
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: LH SEN, SPG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Rav Kav Platinum
Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #169 on: March 13, 2014, 04:48:10 AM »
The government doesn't owe anybody any child support, and they can slash it from the current $1000/yr to nothing.
I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from. The current credit is between 1500-2000 shekel.
Create professional looking itineraries.
Free trial! Check out eliteitinerary.com
Code:DD

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 9910
  • Total likes: 58
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #170 on: March 13, 2014, 08:00:50 PM »
I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from. The current credit is between 1500-2000 shekel.
You're right. My points remains the same though.
Purpose > Pleasure

Offline yare

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 2117
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #171 on: March 13, 2014, 08:16:42 PM »
The government doesn't owe anybody any child support, and they can slash it from the current $1000/yr to nothing.

Healthcare is free for all residents and now military service is mandatory for all residents. If you don't give you can't take.
child support and healthcare are given to anyone residing in the country, even non israeli citizens who dont serve in anything. its a social service completely independent of the army.

Primary schooling in religious schools is still government funded. They can stop funding private schools.
none of the right wing charedi schools take a penny from the governement.

Say what you will, the charedi system probably cannot survive without the government's money. More people would need to work.
and if the charedim stopped paying sales tax and property tax and car tax etc etc, they could use that money towards living and make up a chunk of the deficit that they would lose from the government cutting funds. they are tax paying members of society and so they get the services of society just like everyone else. that's the way it works in developed countries.

besides, most of them are living primarily on gemachs anyway, a few thousand shekel here or there isn't going to change anyones life in the long run. while the money from the government definitely helps, it's not what's keeping them learning.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 9910
  • Total likes: 58
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #172 on: March 13, 2014, 08:22:57 PM »
I don't know to quote you but it's feasible for the government to restrict non emergency healthcare to non-criminals.

Every mainstream charedi school lives on various government funding, especially the girls schools which are almost regular public schools. Very easy for government to withhold funding from all schools that arent co ed.

Most heimish people avoid sales taxes wherever possible. So long as the government controls the banks it won't be any more possible.

It's not feasbile to avoid property taxes (besides arnona for some) since the government controls tabu and nobody in their right mind puts down real money without the security of a land deed.
 
Purpose > Pleasure

Offline yare

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 2117
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #173 on: March 13, 2014, 08:35:32 PM »
I don't know to quote you but it's feasible for the government to restrict non emergency healthcare to non-criminals.
then they would need to make a law that all those with criminal records lose non-emergency healthcare... which would never fly. show me one democratic society that has people with criminal records losing social services?   

obviously the government can do whatever they want, but they can't call themselves a democratic government while openly discriminating against a large minority.

Every mainstream charedi school lives on various government funding, especially the girls schools which are almost regular public schools. Very easy for government to withhold funding from all schools that arent co ed.
the government has no basis to remove funding from the schools, as anyone of that age isn't yet eligible for the army.  anyway the bais yaakovs aren't relevant, because the religious girls still have a ptur from the army.

Most heimish people avoid sales taxes wherever possible. So long as the government controls the banks it won't be any more possible.

It's not feasbile to avoid property taxes (besides arnona for some) since the government controls tabu and nobody in their right mind puts down real money without the security of a land deed.
 
i wasn't saying that they should start avoiding taxes as payback. my point was just that in any first world society, when one pays taxes they in turn are provided with the social services that those taxes go towards paying. to say we're going to cut all your services but you still need to pay taxes is about the equivalent of highway robbery. 

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 9910
  • Total likes: 58
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
« Reply #174 on: March 13, 2014, 11:47:15 PM »
then they would need to make a law that all those with criminal records lose non-emergency healthcare... which would never fly. show me one democratic society that has people with criminal records losing social services?   

obviously the government can do whatever they want, but they can't call themselves a democratic government while openly discriminating against a large minority.
the government has no basis to remove funding from the schools, as anyone of that age isn't yet eligible for the army.  anyway the bais yaakovs aren't relevant, because the religious girls still have a ptur from the army.
i wasn't saying that they should start avoiding taxes as payback. my point was just that in any first world society, when one pays taxes they in turn are provided with the social services that those taxes go towards paying. to say we're going to cut all your services but you still need to pay taxes is about the equivalent of highway robbery.

1. There's also no democratic society with a significant minority openly ignoring criminal codes.

2. Very easy to claim it's for children superior liberal education (they'd also have quite a good point re: learning the English language). They have every reason to do it to pressure the parents.

3. Providing school only in government run co-ed public schools and changing the healthcare system for a free for all to free for veterans is in line with many other first world countries, yet significant minorities revolting against national obligations is not in line.

Anyhow obviously these are extreme steps, but someone here said it would take a civil war, and I disagree - all it takes is withholding money. The unknown factor is the ability and willingness of private charities to fund the charedi society
Purpose > Pleasure