MH370 Shabbos Story Discussion

[DH Data Recovery]

Doesn't matter right now why it happened at the end of the day this guys life was spared because he chose not to fly on shabbos, it could have been because he chose to stay for a birthday or what not but in this particular case Shabbos was his salvation becase that was his reason for remaining behind...

[CountValentine]

If we believe G-D is good then what we see as good makes sense to us that it comes from him but the things we can't see the good in we have to accept on belief that it's also good even though we can't comprehend it.

What if we believe G-D is good but lets the chips fall where they may? That this person being saved from the recent plane crash was a result of the free will that all of us were given. If I understand correctly this scenario is not possible in Judaism?

[Menachem613]

I got the impression that the count was trying to say that if we don't know why bad things happen why do we try to claim to know why good things happen?
If it's all G-d's master plan then we must accept that we don't understand any of it. Good or bad.

+10000

[CountValentine]

I got the impression that the count was trying to say that if we don't know why bad things happen why do we try to claim to know why good things happen?

Correct.

[MC]

What if we believe G-D is good but lets the chips fall where they may? That this person being saved from the recent plane crash was a result of the free will that all of us were given. If I understand correctly this scenario is not possible in Judaism?

No... We believe in free will too, but that at the same time Gd has a plan and knows what's going to happen.

It's tough to wrap your brain around but the closest I can come to is comparing it to a father who knows what choices his son will make but allows him to make mistakes and fail (and therefore hopefully learn). Or like a chessmaster who knows exactly what you're going to do, even though you haven't made any move yet. Obviously those aren't perfect comparisons because there's a chance you can do what's unexpected whereas Gd is never surprised by our choices.

[etech0]

No... We believe in free will too, but that at the same time Gd has a plan and knows what's going to happen.

It's tough to wrap your brain around but the closest I can come to is comparing it to a father who knows what choices his son will make but allows him to make mistakes and fail (and therefore hopefully learn). Or like a chessmaster who knows exactly what you're going to do, even though you haven't made any move yet. Obviously those aren't perfect comparisons because there's a chance you can do what's unexpected whereas Gd is never surprised by our choices.

G-d created time, and thus, is beyond it. So the whole question of Him knowing what we will choose is moot.

[CountValentine]

No... We believe in free will too, but that at the same time Gd has a plan and knows what's going to happen.

It's tough to wrap your brain around but the closest I can come to is comparing it to a father who knows what choices his son will make but allows him to make mistakes and fail (and therefore hopefully learn). Or like a chessmaster who knows exactly what you're going to do, even though you haven't made any move yet. Obviously those aren't perfect comparisons because there's a chance you can do what's unexpected whereas Gd is never surprised by our choices.

We are on the same page. One last question (maybe  ). G-D knows what is going to happen but does not cause it to happen?

[MC]

We are on the same page. One last question (maybe  ). G-D knows what is going to happen but does not cause it to happen?

Have you ever played chess with a grand master? At every moment you are exactly where they want and intend (and yes, caused) you to be, yet you made the moves.

[CountValentine]

Have you ever played chess with a grand master? At every moment you are exactly where they want and intend (and yes, caused) you to be, yet you made the moves.

Now we are on different pages. I understand what you are saying but don't agree. Guess we will leave it that or this will never end. 

[MC]

Agree to disagree. I'm fine with that. (Btw look at etech's comment too since it's true, at least in my opinion. Just so much harder to understand)

[PlatinumGuy]

we don't understand any of it. Good or bad.

Ramban holds it's a mitzva to try to understand why every bad thing happens.

[MC]

Ramban holds it's a mitzva to try to understand why every bad thing happens.

If you're referencing what I think you're referencing (inyan tefillin), the mitzvah is not to understand the reason but to understand that there IS a reason.

[etech0]

Agree to disagree. I'm fine with that. (Btw look at etech's comment too since it's true, at least in my opinion. Just so much harder to understand)

I didn't make it up. IIRC it's from the Rambam.

[MC]

I know, I meant in my opinion (perhaps belief is a better word) as opposed to the count's

[PlatinumGuy]

If you're referencing what I think you're referencing (inyan tefillin), the mitzvah is not to understand the reason but to understand that there IS a reason.

Nope, ramban says specifically that there is a mitzva to try to understand the reason for every tzara in the world. I believe it is at the end דרשת תורת ה' תמימה, but I may be wrong.

ETA I think it is this from Sha'ar hagemul

אם תשאל עלינו: כיון שיש עניין נעלם במשפט ונצטרך להאמין בצדקו מצד שופט האמת יתברך ויתעלה, למה תטריח אותנו ותצווה עלינו ללמוד הטענות שפירשנו והסוד שרמזנו? ולא נשליך הכל על הסמך שנעשה בסוף שאין לפניו לא עוולה ולא שכחה, אלא שכל דבריו במשפט. זו טענת הכסילים מואסי חכמה, כי נועיל לעצמנו בלמוד שהזכרנו להיותנו חכמים ויודעי א-להים יתברך מדרך הא-ל וממעשיו... וכן חובת כל נברא עובד מאהבה ומיראה לתור בדעתו לצדק המשפט ולאמת הדין כפי שידו משגת... כדי שתתיישב דעתו בעניין ויתאמת אליו דין בוראו.

[PlatinumGuy]

IIRC it's from the Rambam.

Willing to bet that it's not.

For one thing the Rambam write in yad that it's impossible to fully understand the idea of ידיעה ובחירה (and the Ravaad says he shouldn't have brought it up if he can't explain it).

[etech0]

Willing to bet that it's not.

For one thing the Rambam write in yad that it's impossible to fully understand the idea of ידיעה ובחירה (and the Ravaad says he shouldn't have brought it up if he can't explain it).

Right. But not only is it impossible to understand, but it's impossible to question, because we simply can't comprehend the variables in what we are asking.

[aygart]

I got the impression that the count was trying to say that if we don't know why bad things happen why do we try to claim to know why good things happen?
If it's all G-d's master plan then we must accept that we don't understand any of it. Good or bad.

I think you are all discussing valid point which have nothing to do with this question. The answer to this is really very simple-that it isn't true. We don't KNOW why G-d makes anything. We can, and should, take educated guesses based on guidelines of Chazal. First and foremost is middah kineged middah-that punishment and reward will be related to the sin or mitzvah for which they are occurring, but there are other rules as well for specific deeds. The purpose of this is not to say that something was someone elses fault etc., but to use these occurrences as a tool to improve ourselves.
This leaves the question why it is that CV so frequently see comments that we don't know why a certain bad thing happened but did not see such comments here. The simplest answer is that here there was a more obvious cause and effect. This may not explain all occurrences though. The more encompassing answer probably is the human tendency to resist changing oneself. Therefore we will sometime find people ascribing the cause of an occurrence to something wrong that someone else did. This is not the correct way to look at the world. Also, when someone see an event being ascribed to something which they deep-down feel that they are lacking in its observance they can sometimes as part of their resistance to using the event for improvement say that we can't know for sure that this is why it happened and therefore don't tell me to change. On the other hand, when something good happens people are happy to jump on the bandwagon and say it is due to a good thing which I do as well. If that is use to strengthen their observance then that is a good thing.

[Moshe123]

http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/41764#comment-571166

[aygart]

Btw, there is a good chance that the same phenomenon is the basis of the quoted comment.