MH370 Shabbos Story Discussion

[judahk88]

http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/41764#comment-572032
 
Wow.

[Aaaron]

Kudos to Dan for not over-moderating the comments and allowing all viewpoints.

[AJK]

+ 1, he does deserve credit for that.

[Freddie]

I disagree. While it is possible that he didn't fully keep shabbos, he did make an effort to not be mechalel shabbos in this particular area. And keeping shabbos, even for just a few minutes, is a tremendously powerful act. If someone doesn't believe that, then they need to examine what exactly their belief system is.

Tzimtzum k'peshuto.

[AJK]

How about we rephrase it to say "might it not be that he was saved because of the merit of Shabbos?" Does that make it better? I personally don't see what's wrong with the story. The story is about one individual, not about all the others on the plane. Nor does it reflect on any of the other tzaros the world has seen since it's creation. It's not an explanation of all of G-d's workings. We are not gloating about the misfortune of others... we rejoice with the every individual who was saved and mourn those we lost.

Really? You fail to see anything wrong from the story from every perspective?

You don't see how people who are not religious (Jewish) may find the story elitist? Potentially insensitive?

You may view it as one individual (as I do), but posts (and indeed all things in life) are not made and done in a vacuum. The fact of the matter is there were 239 people who perished on a plane which has not even yet been found. 239 people who did not have Shabbas to save them.* 239 people who likely will never see their families again.

Ever turn on the TV on a Sunday? See an evangelical preacher saying that he blessed a paralyzed person who is now able to walk after drinking some holy water? How much credence do you put in that? I'd venture to say, as a religious Jew (as I think you may be), that you don't give it much and that you'd simply dismiss it out of hand, calling the guy hokey. Why is this different?

[DBK]

Really? You fail to see anything wrong from the story from every perspective?

You don't see how people who are not religious (Jewish) may find the story elitist? Potentially insensitive?

You may view it as one individual (as I do), but posts (and indeed all things in life) are not made and done in a vacuum. The fact of the matter is there were 239 people who perished on a plane which has not even yet been found. 239 people who did not have Shabbas to save them.* 239 people who likely will never see their families again.

Ever turn on the TV on a Sunday? See an evangelical preacher saying that he blessed a paralyzed person who is now able to walk after drinking some holy water? How much credence do you put in that? I'd venture to say, as a religious Jew (as I think you may be), that you don't give it much and that you'd simply dismiss it out of hand, calling the guy hokey. Why is this different?

I think there definitely is another perspective. However I would say I agree with the fact that this story is not gloating and reveling in the demise of the others. It is still unfortunate and a horrible tragedy- there is not disputing that.  Rather it is just highlighting a seemingly miraculous event surrounding the Jew who kept Shabbos and that somehow saved him as an individual. As has been posted things like this were posted during 9/11 as well about people who decided to go to Shachris or stayed late and it saved them. Why is it fair to vilify this any more that those events?

[AJK]

Who said those events weren't vilified?

Also, I'm not quite sure you DO understand there is another perspective.

You fail to appreciate that simply by highlighting the fact that a Jew was saved because of the Jewish Sabbath that those of different or non faiths would see that as elitist. Nothing more is required. You cannot have one without the other. It's the other side of the same coin.

I challenge anyone to put your feet in the shoes of the families of the victim and reread the post. Tell me then it isn't elitist and insensitive. Especially because their loved ones haven't even been recovered yet.

[DBK]

Who said those events weren't vilified?

Also, I'm not quite sure you DO understand there is another perspective.

You fail to appreciate that simply by highlighting the fact that a Jew was saved because of the Jewish Sabbath that those of different or non faiths would see that as elitist. Nothing more is required. You cannot have one without the other. It's the other side of the same coin.

I challenge anyone to put your feet in the shoes of the families of the victim and reread the post. Tell me then it isn't elitist and insensitive. Especially because their loved ones haven't even been recovered yet.

Not my quote but find it applicable here-
Put yourself in the shoes of the person who was "saved" here. If he attributes his safety, in part, to a particular event (in this case, observance (or quasi-observance) of Shabbat), why is that a bad thing? I don't think anyone is intending to disrespect the presumed victims. Why can't the story stand on its own without the need to psychoanalyze the story-teller, members of the story, or the presumed negative connotations on other people? Do you disagree with Sabbath observance (in its technical sense) as an ideal for a Jewish person?

[aygart]

Really? You fail to see anything wrong from the story from every perspective?

You don't see how people who are not religious (Jewish) may find the story elitist? Potentially insensitive?

You may view it as one individual (as I do), but posts (and indeed all things in life) are not made and done in a vacuum. The fact of the matter is there were 239 people who perished on a plane which has not even yet been found. 239 people who did not have Shabbas to save them.* 239 people who likely will never see their families again.

Ever turn on the TV on a Sunday? See an evangelical preacher saying that he blessed a paralyzed person who is now able to walk after drinking some holy water? How much credence do you put in that? I'd venture to say, as a religious Jew (as I think you may be), that you don't give it much and that you'd simply dismiss it out of hand, calling the guy hokey. Why is this different?

You really think that a reward for a good deed is comparable to drinking holy water? I think you need to rethink schar vonesh.

Just about every religion has included in it some level of reward and punishment for keeping to the religion. That Judaism includes such a thing should not be elitist. If anything, Judaism is the least elitist in that gentiles can be rewarded for minimal observance. Someone who does not belive in Judaism will obviously ascribe the story to chance or some other reason based upon his religion just as Jews will do when they say similar stories about theirs. This is not superiority-it is reward for keeping to religious principals.

[AJK]

Not my quote but find it applicable here-
Put yourself in the shoes of the person who was "saved" here. If he attributes his safety, in part, to a particular event (in this case, observance (or quasi-observance) of Shabbat), why is that a bad thing? I don't think anyone is intending to disrespect the presumed victims. Why can't the story stand on its own without the need to psychoanalyze the story-teller, members of the story, or the presumed negative connotations on other people? Do you disagree with Sabbath observance (in its technical sense) as an ideal for a Jewish person?

Again:

You may view it as one individual (as I do), but posts (and indeed all things in life) are not made and done in a vacuum. The fact of the matter is there were 239 people who perished on a plane which has not even yet been found. 239 people who did not have Shabbas to save them.* 239 people who likely will never see their families again.

Don't make the mistake of assuming you live and operate in a vacuum. Everything you do, right and wrong, has effects. See "butterfly effect."

Again, I challenge you to put yourself into the shoes of the families of the victim and reread the post.

[AJK]

You really think that a reward for a good deed is comparable to drinking holy water? I think you need to rethink schar vonesh.

Just about every religion has included in it some level of reward and punishment for keeping to the religion. That Judaism includes such a thing should not be elitist. If anything, Judaism is the least elitist in that gentiles can be rewarded for minimal observance. Someone who does not belive in Judaism will obviously ascribe the story to chance or some other reason based upon his religion just as Jews will do when they say similar stories about theirs. This is not superiority-it is reward for keeping to religious principals.

You fell right into the trap.

That's exactly my point. You dismissed out of hand "drinking holy water" because it's not your belief.

Further, Judaism is by its very mandate elitist. If you disagree with that, we don't really have much to debate, as we're operating on different wavelengths.

[CountValentine]

http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/41764#comment-572032
 
Wow.

Wow good or Wow bad? 

[CountValentine]

You really think that a reward for a good deed is comparable to drinking holy water?

Who drinks Holy water?

[Freddie]

Who drinks Holy water?

It's an old joke.

[Achas Veachas]

Wow good or Wow bad? 

wow wow.

[judahk88]

Wow good or Wow bad? 

Ahhh. I'm going to stay out of this one. 

[good sam]

Time to break this out into a new thread?

[wayfe]

Really? You fail to see anything wrong from the story from every perspective?

You don't see how people who are not religious (Jewish) may find the story elitist? Potentially insensitive?

You may view it as one individual (as I do), but posts (and indeed all things in life) are not made and done in a vacuum. The fact of the matter is there were 239 people who perished on a plane which has not even yet been found. 239 people who did not have Shabbas to save them.* 239 people who likely will never see their families again.

Ever turn on the TV on a Sunday? See an evangelical preacher saying that he blessed a paralyzed person who is now able to walk after drinking some holy water? How much credence do you put in that? I'd venture to say, as a religious Jew (as I think you may be), that you don't give it much and that you'd simply dismiss it out of hand, calling the guy hokey. Why is this different?

I can only ever see things through my perspective, which is that of an orthodox Jew. However my worldview is based upon not only my beliefs. It also is based upon the accumulated knowledge of thousands of Rabbonim of spiritual and intellectual genius, my belief in them, the depth that my personal intellect can grasp, and my personal experiences, as well as the culture I was brought up in. These aren't listed in order of importance, as they are all intertwined and linked and knotted together.

So therefore, adressing your last point, if I think that holy water curing somebody isn't the truth- it's not the same thing. It's different.

I don't see the story as elitist, at all. G-d rewards good deeds. The story would be just the same if it would be a Mitzva that non-religious people have an easier time understanding. Let say, the plane was leaving on Sunday and Andy missed it because he decided to attend a charity function instead. Would that be considered elitist?

I think people are mistakenly extrapolating from the story the following non-fact: the other peole suffered the terrible fate they did because they weren't Shomer Shabbos. The story is about 1 individual. That's all. It's not pronouncing judgement or explaining why the other people died. It's about one person being rewarded by G-d for some good deed that he did (does that mean that the other 239 people never did any good deeds? NO!). Can it be that he merited being saved because of Shabbos?

It may very well be.

[MeirS]

This thread used to be entertaining. ;-(

[wayfe]

I challenge anyone to put your feet in the shoes of the families of the victim and reread the post. Tell me then it isn't elitist and insensitive. Especially because their loved ones haven't even been recovered yet.

Life isn't fair. Some people die and some people live. I do not say this to be insensitive to those who died. But the fate of one does not reflect in ANY way upon the others.

ETA: By life not being fair, I don't mean that G-d doesn't have an exacting plan. I just mean that we don't always see how things are fair.